Author Topic: Claude and Icari  (Read 6821 times)

Offline Marx-93

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2015, 09:58:47 pm »
I simply said All Guard can be used as a defensive measure, and it's easier than the micromanaging that using AIM DWN and a full barrage of kinetics since turn 1 needs. I simply said that AIM DWN is now a little less useful, as a full defensive posture, in which before AIM DWN was needed, now doesn't need it because missiles are no longer a threat with All Guard. All Guard is not total crap if it lets you finish the game safely and without worries; it may not be as efficient or as "skillful", but I don't get why you feel the need to denounce it so much

And laser shields don't cover everything, specially with the bigger number of units you get later (or as seen in the Legion mission). That precisely helps make All Guard more useful, as now you can spread both shields and flak without as much danger.

And ei, I never said that the Bianca was hit in my playthrough. I said it only because I made some small calculations that the PACT ELITEs could rape half of my support team whenever they decided to be less stupid (10 damage to the Bianca per Assault shot, with their numbers they could really put a world of hurt for it).

Also, I will honestly say that my first movement in every battle is always putting the Phoenix near a place with 2 Elites, use gravity gun on both and let her finish both through melee. It needs Full Forward, but since I always use it at the beginning there is no loss for me.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline Britnoth

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2015, 06:47:41 am »
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I simply said that AIM DWN is now a little less useful,

All Guard does not impact in the usefulness of Aim Down in any way. +20 more flak on your flak capable units does not make their missiles and rockets useless, just less reliable.

Vs PACT support, Aim Down is arguably a better missile defence than +20 flak from AG is.

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And laser shields don't cover everything,

They do, if you upgrade their range.

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That precisely helps make All Guard more useful, as now you can spread both shields and flak without as much danger.

What game are you playing where you would want to spread your forces out, providing less shield and flak cover?

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(10 damage to the Bianca per Assault shot, with their numbers they could really put a world of hurt for it).

They also have terrible accuracy.  10 damage per shot... from the few that land if you place her behind the rest of your fleet because she is providing shield cover and AIM DOWN.

And the Bianca should rarely have agro anyway.

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Also, I will honestly say that my first movement in every battle is always putting the Phoenix near a place with 2 Elites, use gravity gun on both and let her finish both through melee. It needs Full Forward, but since I always use it at the beginning there is no loss for me.

This is the one thing that might make sense. Problem is, how often can you deploy close enough to use the grav gun to pull 2 elites into melee range, kill them both, and then pull back to keep flak + shield cover? cos without which she will be dead very quickly and agro will switch elsewhere.


The original complaint was 'Icari has nothing to do once all the enemy ryders are dead'.

The mistake here is twofold:

1. You arent even using her in the most advantageous way: finishing off large capital ships and pulling large levels of hate.

2. You are targetting so much of your fire on ryders, you are killing all the ryders while capital ships are still alive.

Icari does fine damage to non ryders. She just needs Soldier boy Kryska to can open them for her first.  ;)

Offline Ol3livion

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2015, 05:54:51 am »
Icari probably could use a more obvious role-placement. Looking at her stats, its obvious shes a dodge tank with 30 or so higher dodge compared to the Blackjack, her closest counterpart. Problem is that most people play her, see her go under fire in the same situations as the Blackjack and get turned into space kibbles. Combined with  ~same assault weaponry as Blackjack, and a melee option people wouldn't use and you have what looks like an inferior ryder.

Yes, melee is awesome, especially when you realize that you take like 30 damage from walking next to something instead of a full -on assault attack. Yes, she can literally fly out of your formation, waste one or two ryders and fly back in on the same turn. It just takes upgrades and a certain degree of fearlessness. Yes, give Icari like, two evasion buffs and two health buffs and suddenly she dodge tanks for days. Hell, give her some more flak and now shes pretty much invulnerable.

Its just... she needs more OOMPH out of the box. Or a tutorial. Which could second as a tutorial on aggro mechanics (seriously, there's such a thing??? I probably intuited it but if you asked me before I came to the forums I would have shrugged and made iffy motions). Maybe tweek her AI so when she fights you, she HEAVILY favors melee so she can kick your ass with it. Maybe higher starting evasion but high costs for increase?


On the subject of Claude..... if Chigara was your priest, Claude is your psionist. How to use Chigara is damned obvious. Give HP, disable enemies when not giving HP, apply Accuracy buffs as needed. With some medium range support. Claude is weird. Aim down and Restore are obvious, damage up doesn't feel as useful as Aim down because we are not on a time limit most missions, and you have full forward when you are. Her main gun is awkward. Big damage, close range, slow. She can't use it because of her squishiness (nobody throws their mage to the front line unless they have super kamikaze moves), and she, herself, is slow. Honestly, I would transplant it onto Icari if she wouldn't kill me for modifying her ryder.

Which brings us to her gravity gun. High cost. Dubious value, specially given that attacks of opportunity deal almost 0 damage. Whats it good for then? In two words, it gives energy. For the cost of 60 to Claude, you can give 40 energy to Kryska or 30 to Sola. And when Kryska and Sola need every single bit of their energy to use double shots, its really freaking useful.

That's what I use it for. Others move elites and supports into perfect vanguard position. When lasers stop sucking and we get the range upgrade, you can shuffle enemies out of shield range or open holes in their flak curtain. Gravity gun has a HUGE variety of moves. You just have to figure it out. Seriously, go double shot Sola and suddenly Claude becomes her best friend.

These two have the same problem. They're good. They just aren't obviously good. If Samu-kun had more budget and time, I would recommend missions with limited forces as semi tutorial missions on these two, but that won't happen. As it is, I don't actually have a good idea about what to do with Claude to make it more obvious what shes good at.
You have it backwards, kill them all isn't our last resort. Killing all your enemies is the FIRST plan.

The other plans are simply the first plan with small details added onto them. Details like Tactics, and Diplomacy, and Alliance, and Agriculture.

Offline Jynx

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2015, 05:27:29 pm »
Actually, I've never had a problem with neither Claude nor Icari (I didn't go higher than Captain, however).

Claude is pretty much needed for shielding all your formation. I'm not very used to go for her gravity gun, but this is definitely my problem. I find also pretty useful the Aim Down command, which makes PACT capital ships even less accurate and less threatening, and makes PACT frigates (or the Pirate Ironhog) way less scary than their normal self.

I use Icari as a normal offensive unit. Go, kill, come back into formation. I do lose her sometimes, because... I'm noob, I guess. It is definitely balanced, as both a Ryder killer and a support to finish low-armor capital ships. The Phoenix is a high risk - high reward unit. If you're unlucky or make some mistakes, it can be smashed before you say "hello", but it has given me a lot of satisfaction with evasion and melee.

In the end, I do not feel they should be fixed in the game. I actually find the Black Jack to be far more irritating, since it is not a close fighter as good as the Phoenix; lasers are not very useful, later in the game (because of enemy massive shielding) and Assault weapons are good only on already damaged enemy units (even Ryders have armor, so your Assault is not going to damage them unless something bigger has already done its job).

Offline Marx-93

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2015, 05:38:01 pm »
The tutorial thing has been proposed a lot of times, and while Samu-kun did say that a more expansive tutorial would be nice, he also says that he hates when a game gives you all perfectly nice in a platter, that you should be able to figure it out by yourself. So there won't be a personalized tutorial for each Ryder, and I personally agree, as for example I use Icari more as an Elite-Killer than a dodge tank (more upgrades on energy than in EV), and everyone should find a way to use the Ryders in their best way.

And Britnoh, you didn't get 90% of what I meant. I will answer this time again, but if you continue without getting it I can only give up:

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I simply said that AIM DWN is now a little less useful,

All Guard does not impact in the usefulness of Aim Down in any way. +20 more flak on your flak capable units does not make their missiles and rockets useless, just less reliable.

Vs PACT support, Aim Down is arguably a better missile defence than +20 flak from AG is.

You have 6 potential sources of flak (Sunrider, Phoenix, Black jack, Paladin, 2 Alliance Cruisers), and normally around 8 potential sources of missiles.  Missiles already have high starting precision. Bothering on using Aim Dwn after all of that is, from my point of view, a bad move. With rockets still, and PACT Supports are sincerely the first priority targets, nobody should use All Guard when they are still there, you're right with that. But, all in all, AIM DWN has a lower usefulness with AG, if you looked my original post I never said it became useless. I don't see the point on arguing about it, because it's a situational case. Sometimes may be worth it, sometimes not. I believe most of times it's the second case.

They do, if you upgrade their range.

Yes? I'm going to spend 10.000$ instead of using a paltry 750 CP order. I mean, will you also say that the improved flak is bad because "you can upgrade it"? Half of the decisions made are choosing play-styles, if your play style means dumping half your cash in shields, do it, but I also think a lot of people will prefer to get a double-shot Sola and use AG than that.

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That precisely helps make All Guard more useful, as now you can spread both shields and flak without as much danger.

What game are you playing where you would want to spread your forces out, providing less shield and flak cover?

A game were the battle is not on a static line but consists of advancing and later defeating the enemy reinforcements that tend to appear on the maps corners? I mean, I know a lot of times I slipped out of my net to engage reinforcements that came out of a corner, and sometimes you want an extra accuracy on one shot. Once again, the thing is that All Guard gives you a buffer strong enough so that you can do something that normally is unthinkable (spreading your forces) in exchange of some kind of other advantage, like an easier shot on an enemy, creating a missile line with less flak in it, etc.
The fact of being able to do something which normally is unthinkable is kinda the point of All Guard, as it lets you play in a more defensive and relaxed way than before. Now, that does not mean this way is better or more efficient, but it means this way exists and you can now play like that.

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(10 damage to the Bianca per Assault shot, with their numbers they could really put a world of hurt for it).

They also have terrible accuracy.  10 damage per shot... from the few that land if you place her behind the rest of your fleet because she is providing shield cover and AIM DOWN.

And the Bianca should rarely have agro anyway.

Actually, they have a base accuracy of 65, which is the same that the BlackJack. On a 2 grids distance that's 130 damage for Claude with only one barrage. And you can't also have Claude too far, it needs to provide shield coverage to everyone. The thing is that elites are also very mobile, can use 2 barrages of Assault while moving one grid, and are very numerous (and armour degradation will enter into it immediately, 3 barrages like that and the Bianca is dead). You're right on the agro, but if you look on my post I also said in the original post I was referring to that it depended on the A.I actually acting intelligently. I was always talking about hypotheticals, it's obvious it doesn't happen now. It actually didn't even factor in none of my arguments, and comes from originally referring as the Bianca as a glass cannon, which I immediately said it was kinda a joke towards gravity cannon, so I don't know why you feel the need to bring it up and discuss it every second.

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Also, I will honestly say that my first movement in every battle is always putting the Phoenix near a place with 2 Elites, use gravity gun on both and let her finish both through melee. It needs Full Forward, but since I always use it at the beginning there is no loss for me.

This is the one thing that might make sense. Problem is, how often can you deploy close enough to use the grav gun to pull 2 elites into melee range, kill them both, and then pull back to keep flak + shield cover? cos without which she will be dead very quickly and agro will switch elsewhere.


The original complaint was 'Icari has nothing to do once all the enemy ryders are dead'.

The mistake here is twofold:

1. You arent even using her in the most advantageous way: finishing off large capital ships and pulling large levels of hate.

2. You are targetting so much of your fire on ryders, you are killing all the ryders while capital ships are still alive.

Icari does fine damage to non ryders. She just needs Soldier boy Kryska to can open them for her first.  ;)

And sorry, but here you're simply wrong. The Phoenix has standard assault guns in-game. Everything that can be finished by it can be finished by any other Ryder or warship, finishing off capital ships is not the most advantageous way because it can be done by everyone. It's useful to have extra guns sometimes, and it's something I've definitely done a lot of times, but it's something that should be done always no matter what? I think differently. The main point would be to use the Phoenix as an agro-accumulator, which is fine if you use it as a dodge-tank. But the fact that I don't use it as that means that automatically I shouldn't be able to finish capitals ship off? Don't be ridiculous.

I personally tend to use either frigates, Alliance Cruisers or the BlackJack as finsihers: when there's too much shields is not like the BlackJack can do anything else, and its assault guns are also a fair lot more powerful, and this is noticeable when the capital ships still has around 200 HP. The frigates are too far way and covered to be done by anything, the Cruisers are very covered and have decent armour and huge HPs like the BlackJack. Using this strategy means that half of PACT won't attack any of these units despite pulling agro because they damage they would do would be negligible. Instead, they go against the Phoenix by default (because it's one of the machines they "can kill" in one hit) or Kryska, who can take it. I effectively use the Phoneix as dodge tank without pulling agro, because to me it works better that way, I prefer having my agro spreaded out.

And heck, it has been working for me. I've only needed to use Ressurrection twice in my captain playthrough, and one wasn't even on the Phoenix. You and I have different styles. Both work. You may believe your is most efficient. I believe mine is. We can be discussing that all day, but shouldn't be referring to me as if I don't know how to play only because I'm playing differently.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline Britnoth

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2015, 11:09:11 am »
Jesus christ man, did you even play the game? look at the upgrade costs and weapon stats?  >:(

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But, all in all, AIM DWN has a lower usefulness with AG, if you looked my original post I never said it became useless. I don't see the point on arguing about it, because it's a situational case. Sometimes may be worth it, sometimes not. I believe most of times it's the second case.

No, you have failed to make, or even suggest, any connection to how using ALL GUARD reduces or replaces the effect of AIM DOWN.

Both use different mechanics, therefore there is no overlap. AG helps shooting them down using a stat that YOUR ships have, while AD reduces the accuracy of the ENEMY ships, causing them to miss.

Aim Down is far far more useful than All Guard. Even vs purely missiles, Aim Down is better than All Guard if the target is, for example, the PHOENIX, due to increasing returns the more dodge chance you have. Flak also becomes less effective with increased use, lower accuracy does not.

PACT supports can remove your flak buff and set flak to ZERO, while their restore only returns their accuracy to normal. VS SUPPORTS, DEBUFFING THE ENEMY AND HAVING THEM USE RESTORE IS A FAR BETTER RESULT.

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Yes? I'm going to spend 10.000$ instead of using a paltry 750 CP order.

Code: [Select]
                'shield_range':['Shield Range',1,1,1000,5],
Cost of upgrading both Liberty + Bianca = 2000. not 10k.   ::)

Also, youre utterly wrong about the cost in both aspects. the cost isnt the 2k cash, its losing the use of FULL FORWARD. Bonuses to accuracy and damage result in a 40%+ increase to overall damage.

So... I can use all guard and save myself 2k. or I can spend 2k to get them to cover the entire fleet, and get another.. 40%+ damage for the entire fleet because I can use full forward instead of all guard. Oh and with them only going from 40% shields to 50% say, ill still be taking noticable laser damage instead of almost none. Tough choice.

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and sometimes you want an extra accuracy on one shot.

Is a false choice. with FULL FORWARD i can both get the same accuracy increase I would from moving forward, more damage, AND i can shoot twice that turn instead of once. Again, this is a ridiculous argument.


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Actually, they have a base accuracy of 65, which is the same that the BlackJack. On a 2 grids distance that's 130 damage for Claude with only one barrage.

Nonsense. Place her behind the rest of the fleet, and enemy ryders are NOT going to be 2 hexes away.

A more reasonable distance is 5 away: That results, vs an unupgraded Biancas evasion of.... 40 damage on average. Insignificant.

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And sorry, but here you're simply wrong.

Sorry, but every point youve made so far has been factually wrong. I back up all my ponts with evidence and examples.

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finishing off capital ships is not the most advantageous way because it can be done by everyone.

Incorrect. Noone else has a starting evasion of 50. Next.

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The main point would be to use the Phoenix as an agro-accumulator, which is fine if you use it as a dodge-tank. But the fact that I don't use it as that means that automatically I shouldn't be able to finish capitals ship off? Don't be ridiculous.

What an innane comment. Nowhere did I say only the phoenix can or should finish off ships. The point I make is, A BADLY DAMAGED SHIP IS AN OPPORUNITY TO MANIPULATE ENEMY AGRO TOWARDS WHERE YOU WANT IT::)

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We can be discussing that all day, but shouldn't be referring to me as if I don't know how to play only because I'm playing differently.

... just.. whatever. Keep expressing your opinions as facts. Then posting numbers that are either wrong instead of taking a minute to look up the releveant upgrade cost in game, or such ridiculous scenarios as placing your support ryder right in front of the fleet and letting enemy ryders get to within 2 hexes distance of them unopposed.

If you complain 'Icari has nothing to do', You are using her, and other units very badly.

And on that note im out, cant take anymore idiocy today.

Offline Ol3livion

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2015, 12:30:42 pm »
In the end, I do not feel they should be fixed in the game. I actually find the Black Jack to be far more irritating, since it is not a close fighter as good as the Phoenix; lasers are not very useful, later in the game (because of enemy massive shielding) and Assault weapons are good only on already damaged enemy units (even Ryders have armor, so your Assault is not going to damage them unless something bigger has already done its job).

I agree with you on the Blackjack late game. I actually tried pushing her into a frigate assault role along with Seraphim (frigate defined as ship with 10-20 armor, too heavy for assault but not a capital ship) by upgrading her lasers and using the mining frigate's shield disable. It.... sorta worked. But it was pretty much only a stop-gap method because her main duty was taking out ryders, and the Phoenix simply kicks her ass at it.

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The tutorial thing has been proposed a lot of times, and while Samu-kun did say that a more expansive tutorial would be nice, he also says that he hates when a game gives you all perfectly nice in a platter, that you should be able to figure it out by yourself. So there won't be a personalized tutorial for each Ryder,

Wasn't quite thinking of a tutorial mission but something like a specialist mission? Like, a mission where you only get Icari, Chigara and Asaga, and its a mission which features 90% ryders with some frigate support with maybe embedded defenses. Goal, take out specific ryder then reach right side of map. It's a side mission too, so you aren't forced to do it, and it encourages diversification of resources. Also, more opportunities for character development without the need for an entire arc devoted to it.

Course, this also presents the problem of balance, since players will feel like they are being punished because they focused upgrades on the other ryders. So if these were going to be included they would have to be in sets, like this mission would be offered at the same time as a side mission where you could only use Claude, Kyrska and Sola. Thus, you could attempt to do the CKS mission to gain funds to do the ICA mission. Or the missions could be Icari, Chigara and 1 of your choice.

This all sounds like far too much work though. Compared to delivering quality plot and balanced main game missions, specialist missions are something you do with more budget and time. Just food for thought.



I guess I should step in here too. Oh boy.

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Actually, they have a base accuracy of 65, which is the same that the BlackJack. On a 2 grids distance that's 130 damage for Claude with only one barrage.
Nonsense. Place her behind the rest of the fleet, and enemy ryders are NOT going to be 2 hexes away.

A more reasonable distance is 5 away: That results, vs an unupgraded Biancas evasion of.... 40 damage on average. Insignificant.
You're arguing on different premises. Marx appears to be talking about a completely hypothetical situation where the enemy is much more intelligent then it is currently (as in ignores aggro, plays like a human, goes after the supports not the tanks). He acknowledges that this is NEVER going to happen in the current game, but that's also why his math takes into account knife fight ranges. Probably should have dropped it earlier but whatever.

On the Subject of Aim Down and its apparent usefulness I believe Marx is making the argument that in previous version, Aim down was CRITICAL to a defensive strategy, hell even surviving the game. However, with the addition of All Guard, he has discovered that he no longer needs Aim Down to win his missions. Thus, comes "Aim Down isn't worth it as All Guard replaces it" It's not that its not worth it, its that its not NEEDED. He then found that Blanca didn't need to be using Aim Down and so he sought another purpose for her, thus leading to "Blanca is useless". It would also go to explain and sometimes you need the accuracy on one shot, as he was using All Guard and could not afford to swap to Full Forward. It appears that predominate usage of Full Forward vs All Guard leads to (somewhat obviously) different strategies and upgrade paths.

If your strategy is, in fact, using all guard at the very back (hell even the middle) of the map, with semi-spread out units to take out reinforcements from the top and bottom while sniping oncoming enemies, then yes. The Phoenix and Blanca don't have shit to do in that situation, assuming that you don't actually need Aim Down.

Actually that leads to an interesting argument that if you believe All Guard should be supported as a completely different set of strategies and tactics, should the Phoenix and/or the Blanca get new abilities to support support this play style (the Phoenix probably does actually)? That would require a ton more play testing and I'm just not up for that though.

Also, you(Marx) state you're very aggressive, but IMO, any strategy uses All Guard instead of Full Forward can not be called aggressive. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass because I think I've used All Guard a total of once, by my strategy always revolves around "deploy into knifefight, warpvanguard, should average 1 unit per unit kill per turn or someone was wasting time."

Huh. I now understand aggro works. Enemy behavior suddenly got much easier to understand.

Anyways, hope that cleared up some misunderstanding. I guess this is why constantly restating your most important point is necessary, and why people don't fucking do this shit because this took me like 40 minutes of searching and cross checking to make sure I had my shit straight.

Tl;DR Marx was talking about some hypotheticals, people took it as actual data. Marx also failed to make clear the difference between CRITICALLY IMPORTANT and useful, but not necessary.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 12:32:14 pm by Ol3livion »
You have it backwards, kill them all isn't our last resort. Killing all your enemies is the FIRST plan.

The other plans are simply the first plan with small details added onto them. Details like Tactics, and Diplomacy, and Alliance, and Agriculture.

Offline Marx-93

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2015, 02:33:33 pm »
Actually, the thing is that I use Full forward, but still, I tested All Guard and it's implications. Despite using FF I decided however that to me having the Phoenix carry agro didn't suit my strategies. I said I'm extremely aggressive because I'm, killing less than ~3 elites and 3 capital ships in one turn is a big failure to me (if they are near, that's it). Heck one of the reason I don't take Supports into account is because the sole idea of them surviving the first turn is a no-no to me. I don't need AIM DWN even in my agressive approach because most of the times there's barely 1 or 2 ships with kinetics in enough range to hit me. It may have been confusing (I actually love how both the Phoenix and Bianca are right now, even if I would probably cheapen the Gravity Gun), so I apologize but aside from that O3livion more or less nailed it.

Aside from that:

Code: [Select]
                'shield_range':['Shield Range',1,1,1000,5],
Cost of upgrading both Liberty + Bianca = 2000. not 10k.   ::)

Except that's only the first amplifiation. You can only cover at most 8 units with both shields and 4 of those position are badly geared towards attack due to being behind the support. It's not enough to get perfect coverage. For the next ampliation you need 5k per Ryder, so 10K

Nowhere did I say only the phoenix can or should finish off ship

2. You are targetting so much of your fire on ryders, you are killing all the ryders while capital ships are still alive.

So, I'm finishing off those same ships yet "you are killing all the ryders while capital ships are still alive"? Tell me how does that work, if by finishing exactly the same number of capital ships that with using Icari as a dodge tank I'm leaving thsoe capital ships alive?

You also continue bringing the point the Phoenix has 50 EV, when the effect of 50 EV is worse than  having a unit four grids behind it, which is exactly what my frigates do, while the Black Jack can afford being one grid behind the Phoenix (so comparetively, it would have a 10% more to being hit) thanks to it's big HP and Armour.

You also seem to believe that, by the fact of not manipulating agro towards the Phoenix, I'm not manipulating agro towards anyone? I suppose you realize that half my post was explaining how precisely due to my units with most agro being behind, the effect was that 50% of the fire was still towards the Phoenix while the other 50% was towards other units, so I don't have to rely too much on "50 natural EV"?

But yeah, you're right, I'm also done with it, I shouldn't even have replied to you.

Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline Britnoth

Re: Claude and Icari
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2015, 05:43:01 am »
The post I was originally replying to was:

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The Phoenix and the Bianca are actually glass cannons from their stats.

Phoneix is yes, as she has both the capacity of doing high damage in melee, and starts with low HP and zero armour, making her vulnerable to even assault guns.

Bianca is NOT a glass cannon. She has POOR damage and even 4 armour is enough to effectively make assault guns laughable at anything beyond very close range. Where she should not be anyway. Using her single shot assault gun for blindside attacks on ryders with her grav gun is funny, but not very practical. The only ryders that would be useful for is bombers (not dangerous once they use their rockets or missiles anyway) or nightmares (you do not want to get into melee range of these to begin with, they will 1 shot most ryders in melee).

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Yes, All Guard has made AIM DWN a little worse by providing a cheap defensive stance that affects everyone.

Is also very misleading and innacurate. ALL GUARD is NOT cheap, as you lose the use of full forward. While it TECHNICALLY affects everyone.. those affected are 95% of the time not really helped anyway. +10% shield strength buff isn't enough EVEN IF you spread your shield cover out (which you shouldn't be doing anyway... 40% to 50%? heh), while if you have your shields overlapping, going from 80% to 100% shield cover is a less useful bonus than at first glance. 80% absorbed damage, followed up by another reduction from armour makes laser attacks also, just laughable.

In reality, AIM DOWN helps everyone vs every weapon. ALL GUARD only helps vs ROCKETS OR MISSILES, and is a different mechanic to AIM DOWN, so in no way makes AIM DOWN in any way "worse" than before.

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Yes, the Phoenix has nothing to do after all Ryders are killed.

Isn't correct, and is based on playing the game in a very strange and counterintuitive manner:

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Icari has nothing to do, because I want to move her first in the turn and only use my kinetic cannons on enemy capital ships after she has fired her assault guns!

Id use her to kill enemy ryders, but I ignored all the enemy battleships hitting me for 500 kinetic damage a turn, enemy carriers spawning ryders every turn, missile frigates spamming missile volleys at me for 6 whole turns before running out of ammo, other cruisers, destroyers, etc etc until I had killed all the crappy enemy ryders, because those 50 points of damage they were doing to the sunrider with their lasers were really, really dangerous!

So, Phoenix clearly needs to be able to melee capital ships, because I'm totally flawless at this game and she's just really really underpowered!!!111oneone.

 8)

Ok. Where was I.

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It may have been confusing (I actually love how both the Phoenix and Bianca are right now, even if I would probably cheapen the Gravity Gun),

7.2 shop upgrade to make the grav just 40 energy worked well, I found. its nice fun boost without making her into something different.

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Except that's only the first amplifiation.

All you need.

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You can only cover at most 8 units with both shields and 4 of those position are badly geared towards attack due to being behind the support.

... Including both support ryders, it is 14.

Fourteeeeeeeeeen.

Enough to cover all your ryders, the sunrider, 2 cruisers and 4 union frigates.

All but the rear... 2 union frigates are not really penalised for being too far away.

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You also continue bringing the point the Phoenix has 50 EV, when the effect of 50 EV is worse than  having a unit four grids behind it, which is exactly what my frigates do, while the Black Jack can afford being one grid behind the Phoenix (so comparetively, it would have a 10% more to being hit) thanks to it's big HP and Armour.

Yeah.. except no, it is not the same.

50 evasion at the front is not worse than 0 evasion 4 hexes back.

 - Noone said you HAVE to place her at the front. I do, but that is because she is the best equiped to be there.
 - Phoenix is upgradable, a union frigate for example is not.
 - Your frigates cost money to replace, while repair costs for the phoenix is is either ~120 cash, or some CP to resurrect.
 - If the frigate does pull agro shots with kinetic fire, or any other kind, it WILL have a chance of being hit. For the Phoenix this is not quite the same, as she can pull fire towards her even if the accuracy is 0%* (see below)
 - 7.2 lasers are only 10% per hex. and missiles are just 5% per hex. Irony here is Icari can dodge missiles even if they hurt with no armour.


* Having high evasion is better than being further away. the AI only estimates accuracy, rather than check the exact chance to hit each time. Ryders like the phoenix with very high evasion can draw fire even if they cannot be hit, due to the AI estimating ryders to have just 25% evasion each time.