Author Topic: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released  (Read 13186 times)

Offline Histidine

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 04:39:21 am »
For the armor/shield damage reductions, you could display them as additional numbers below the damage one. Like, say:

1000
-250
-87

Though the number of hits and missile intercepts is also missing, and I'm not sure where it would go. If it was written to a readily visible text log it'd be fine I guess?

Just reducing Liberty's shield range gives you a whopping 5000. It's fine to increase Shield Range cost but take care that the players don't exploit it to get cheap Intel fast to boost other parameters.
Do people really want to cut shield range for just 5,000 intel, though? It seems to me to be kind of an important stat for not getting chewed to death by things like mook blobs, especially with more units to cover now.

Offline warchief-williams

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 12:46:03 am »
So, after messing around for awhile, here are some more impressions. Mind you, I am not much of a programmer so I don't have many ideas/solutions on that front, all i have is my impressions after playing the game for a long time yesterday. This is kind of a long post, so beware.

Battle System: I will reiterate that while the system flows a lot smother, I still miss the voice overs for attacking and taking damage. It was a nice little touch that helped to give the characters more personality (Icari's tsundere "blame the captain" shtick for one). Also, I noticed that the Gunboat, the Falcon, and the Union Battleship lack voice overs, are you planing on making voice overs for those ships?

PACT Fast Cruiser: I consider these almost as threatening as battleships and assault carriers, perhaps even more so on higher difficulty levels. Even on the lower difficulty levels they are a major threat to your capital ships and even to your ryders as they appear to have a far higher accuracy rating for their kinetics. Any chance that the Sunrider can get some Fast Cruisers for its fleet? I will gladly trade two Alliance cruisers for two PACT fast cruisers.

PACT Missile Destroyer: An AOE weapon? Awesome! Too bad it is easily intercepted or dodged. I think that, so long as it is not impossible or incredibly difficult to program, the AOE weapon, unless intercepted, should still affect all in its blast radius. It is a bit jarring to see a missile target a ryder or gunboat in the middle of a formation, miss, and do no damage to any other craft in the formation. You think the detonation would still catch the other ships. Also, any chance that the Sunrider will be able to upgrade it's torpedoes in the future to replicate this ability?

Ryuvian Falcon: As an enemy, shesh guys, as if the Nightmares weren't problematic enough, you had to make a super Nightmare! Some of us like to make it through a battle without losing every single ship! As a fleet ship, it is like a faster, less heavily armored version of the Paladin, and I highly approve. The Sunrider was missing having a ship that moved like the Phoenix but that hits like the Paladin, and this is it.

Mining Union Battleship: Kinda disappointed that I can't ram enemy ships with the drills at the front... Otherwise, it is nice to have to drag those camping assault carriers closer to my kinetic weapons.

Ceran Gunboat: Essentially another Phoenix, which helps to deal with the swarms of Mooks and Grunts, and in high enough numbers, Elites and Arcadius units. I do have a lore question regarding them though, they look and seem to be (at least gameplay wise) to be conventional fighters, so they probably don't have the ability to go FTL. So are they carried in the Sunrider's hanger?

For the Research and the Store, I like how they are laid out and operate. It is a lot smother to use than I thought it was going to be. Regarding the split between Intel and Money, while I like the split, as it allows me to fill out the Sunrider's support fleet even on higher difficulties. Would it be possible to have an option at the store be a conversion from money to intel? It would help to alleviate that massive pile of cash sitting in the Sunrider's safe.

Missions and Sunrider Map: Any chance that we will have the option to choose the order we do side missions in? I kinda like to have Falcons on my side faster than they currently become unlockable. I also kinda miss jumping around the map of the Sunrider finding characters to talk to. Though I assume those play second fiddle right now to ensuring the new battle system works

Plot: Not a whole lot of the overall plot was revealed in this Beta, there was just the bit from Beta 9 that still has me wondering about what will happen, though that is a discussion for a different time and forum subsection (though I don't know which one). Regarding the romance side though, I agree with the previous comment regarding the romance. While I don't mind watching the Chigara route unfold (after all, that is where MOA was leaning anyways, it would be odd for Kayto to suddenly switch gears/girls) for me at least, the Chigara route takes second priority to the Icari, Asaga, and Ava routes. I am guessing that there will be multiple routes based on the fact that there is an affection rating in the code, but we all know what they say about assuming...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 12:48:12 am by warchief-williams »

Offline Vaendryl

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 01:28:49 am »
voices will be added later. it's not a hard thing to do but they have to be tied to the weapons and it just takes a while. we should get the intern to do it :)
it's not like they're permanently removed and firing the Sunrider's Pulse weapon will actually properly play Ava's voice file for it (added that one for testing the system). so yeah, they'll be back and you can get annoyed over then like in the good old days :)

the AoE rocket actually will never miss - it has infinite accuracy. it cannot be dodged, so evasion means nothing. it can only be shot down by flak and it's harder to intercept than a regular torpedo, but when it is shot down only the primary target will show a 'miss' message. so, when that shows the rocket isn't dodged but just shot down. I might want to look into making that clearer by making it say 'intercepted' instead of a generic 'miss'.

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Offline Drath

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2015, 11:37:49 am »
Just got back from travelling. Haven't played much, apart from doing the ion storm battle and some comparisons. Hotel room didn't have a desk and playing on the bus is not really comfortable lol. Haven't had much sleep yet, so this is going to be rather long and rambly :P


On weapon balance:
In general, I enjoyed the balance in LibDay. With laser/pulse cost upgrades rolled back to its original state in 7.1, this markedly reduces the likelihood of Pulse spam towards the endgame. The shot reduction for pulse (10->9 and 8->7 for Sunrider, Blackjack respectively) is also appreciated and is likely a good move instead of overall damage reduction for energy upgrades as it tackles pulse only (which was the main issue anyway), while leaving laser damage untouched by this change.

There were times where pulse was the best option (ie against PACT fast cruisers when kinetics had insufficient accuracy) and there were times where kinetics were the best option (ie against full hp battleships and assault carriers (which now have 40 armor lol)). Yea I still used kinetics on those even after an initial cannon shot by an Alliance Battleship. Even used Assault at one point to shred a nearby mook after SRW. And definitely with missiles beefed up, these remain center stage for initial burst damage, and were vital especially for that first battle against Cosette.
So in general, I'm happy to say I feel that weapon balance is back on track and that every weapon type has a role to play. :)


My first impression is that there seems to be too much Intel and Funds given collectively. 
On LibDay Intel+Funds+upgrades Vs MoA credits:
Apparently I was very badly mistaken here. The detailed breakdown is in the attachment below. Sam actually gave quite a bit less total Intel+Funds+upgs compared with MoA total credits. That's ok as I think I farmed reinforcements in some of the MoA missions so giving less makes good sense and will reduce balance issues. If you ignore the final credits from Legion and Arcadius battles (last 2 MoA battles), the tally is actually roughly similar.
My sincere apologies for the error. I think I saw a 5k upg for Liberty and a bunch of upgs (which were actually all quite small) on many ships and jumped to conclusions. Travelling and multitasking messes up my brain :P


On Sunrider and ryder upgrades:
I went with more or less the same scheme I used at the end of MoA. One reason was to have that sense of continuity and as respeccing is now free, no reason not to do it. So Paladin with triple kinetics, Bianca with 120EN and Grav Gun at 40EN via store upgrade, Liberty at 120EN. I also ran into the same Intel discrepancies as noted by Wakuseino here increasing/decreasing upgrades.

I took out Liberty's 5k shield range upgrade and a few of Sunrider's hull upgrades. Some increase in hps is nice as insurance but I felt the extra Intel was just too good to pass up and funnelled them into the upgrades above. The only unit that really needs that extra hp, how ever expensive it might be, is Phoenix because she's an aggro whore especially when she's stranded out there, outstretched with little flak support. Also took out Seraphim's extra energy and kinetic cost reduction because it was neither here nor there. Had half a mind to give her double kinetics but ended up deciding in favor of pulse upgrades for Blackjack and some extra movement, melee cost reduction for Phoenix. Other misc upgrades that I nixed were missile flak resistance, missile energy cost and some armor on ryders.

On store purchases:
Started with roughly 14.6k funds. So I bought 2 Alliance Cruisers, 3 Mining Union Frigates (one less compared to MoA but probably for the better for balance), Gravitino Generator and Portable Repair Booster which is similar to what I had at the end of MoA. As I had a LOT of extra funds leftover, I also bought the 4 Cera Gunboats.


On Cera Gunboat:
These are not impressive at first sight as they only have Assault weaponry. But I think their appeal comes from having high flak and good maneuvrability, which allows them to provide good defence against missiles as your forces extend across the battlefield. These will probably be relegated to mook duty while Phoenix takes on larger ryders like Bombers, Elites and Supports. Suppressive fire is a bit of a niche ability. It doesn't stack with itself but it can be really helpful when coupled with strikes from another unit that has not so great accuracy but fantastic damage (ie suppressive fire on an Assault Carrier to enable an Alliance Battleship to use its main Cannon with acceptable odds of hitting the target).
As such I think they are a welcome addition to Sunrider's fleet, especially with complaints in 7.2 MoA that enemy missiles and rockets were again the main threat.



Battle 2 (Ion Storm):
The first battle after access to upgrades/store. Used 3FF, 1SRW. Ended up with 4k CP going into next battle.
No Sunrider for the first couple of turns and you have no access to missiles either. As you have to deal with a good number of PACT Battleships here, if you hadn't gotten at least triple kinetics for Paladin and both Alliance Cruisers, you might be caught in a pretty awkward state of affairs. It's probably quite natural for vets to gravitate to this (no reason you wouldn't want Alliance Cruisers and triple kinetic Paladin is also fairly high priority), but I'm a little worried for new players, whom I think might be a little unpleasantly surprised.

The most crucial turns here are turn 1 and turn 5. Took out the first Arcadius with Phoenix, dragged the other out of shielding and Seraphim and Blackjack took it down with some help from Gunboats. Only managed to down 1 Battleship in turn 1, Disabled another with Liberty and was just praying hard that rockets wouldn't kill off Phoenix. Fortunately with some Aim Down from Bianca and some added flak cover by an Alliance Cruiser and 2 Cera Gunboats, it seems I got lucky. Phoenix still got pounded pretty bad, by battleship missiles and surviving mooks, but most of these attacks missed and so she survived.

I struggled quite a bit to take down 2 Battleships the next turn. Just simply not quite enough kinetics. I made do with minimum kinetics used to reduce initial armor, coupling it with pulse in the mid armor ranges and finishing off with Cera Gunboats. Had to calculate and ration shots properly for this one, but I managed to scrape by. Down below, a repaired Phoenix helped the new Cera Gunboats take out most of the new mooks. Regular PACT Carriers are now relegated to last priority in terms of targets as they basically do no damage on their turn, take a good amount of resources to kill and whatever they spawn can be dealt with easily with Gunboats or Phoenix (need to give them something to do too lol).

Turn 3 was mostly cleanup. Kinetics on the last Battleship by a buffed (FF+AtkUp) Paladin, dragged forward by Bianca, and by Alliance Cruisers. Quite a few lasers/pulse used here as Sunrider and Blackjack were out of range.

PACT Fast Cruisers at the start of turn 4, is a nice introduction to these new units. Contrary to regular Cruisers which are kinetic friendly but pulse resistant, Fast Cruisers have rather high evasion but no shields and middling armor, which makes them kinetic unfriendly but pulse cuts them down just fine. Some pulse action from Blackjack and Sunrider, coupled with some lasers from Mining Union Frigates and the Cera Gunboats can finish them off just fine.
At the end of turn 4 I was pretty comfortable, having taken out vast majority of enemy ships and was quite surprised at the mass of PACT reinforcements arriving before turn 5.

Turn 5, I focussed most of my fire at the bottom group. Took out 2 Elites and a mook with Phoenix, while Sunrider took out the Fast Cruisers with help from Mining Union Frigates and Gunboats. The Arcadius ryder I hit with Seraphim and Mining Union Frigate lasers before dragging it into a hex with 3 Gunboat counterattacks. Finished it off with more Gunboat attacks. Took out new Battleship from top group with kinetics from Paladin and Alliance Cruisers. I had planned to kill off both PACT Destroyers before they could get a move but miscalculated and only managed to down one. I was quite pleasantly surprised when the remaining destroyer didn't fire a torpedo on its turn but merely moved closer. I thought rockets had really good range? Haven't checked the AI on these but if these have to close in before firing their torpedoes, they'll be shot down before doing anything.
Lastly, 2800hp Assault Carriers! That's quite an increase and the boost to armor (20 to 40) makes them unpleasantly resistant to pulse. It kinda makes sense though, as they are described as being some of the best ships in PACT's fleets and it's logical to see large ships like these having more armor than Cruisers. Didn't manage to down any on turn 5.

The next 2 turns was more or less cleanup with added Alliance support. The last turn was a no brainer when you finally get your missiles back.

This was a really fun battle to do, featuring a good number of new units (Cera Gunboat, PACT Fast Cruiser, PACT Destroyer), revamped old units with increased hp totals (mooks, bombers, battleships, assault carriers, etc), with ships restrictions (Sunrider), weapon restrictions (missiles) and the whole flow of the battle and unit placement felt really dynamic. So here's a thumbs up for good scenario/battle design from me.  :)



On Drawfire (aka taunt):
Messed with it a bit after completing this battle the regular way, just to see how it works. Not all enemy units targeted Paladin after Drawfire. 100+ armor makes it immune to missiles and puts a heavy dent on lasers so its pretty strong. I don't think I'll employ it that much though as Paladin already draws her fair share of enemy attacks via aggro from triple kinetics and I prefer straight offence in general.


Misc bugs/issues:
1)Shield Jam still lasts 2 turns (which is as it should be) despite the fact that when you apply it the first time, it looks like Shield Jam (1). At the the start of the next turn it looks like Shield Jam (0) but the effect of the debuff is still present. However, using Shield Jam again on an enemy unit at Shield Jam (0) does NOT increase the duration back to Shield Jam (1). Enemy shield power still drops but there is no increase in duration. So on the turn after Shield Jam (0), the debuff will disappear and you'll be forced to debuff again from scratch. If this is intended. I think it should be made clear to the players and if it isn't intended, then it should be fixed.

2)While you can now view CP after using an order, unfortunately you can also use orders multiple times in a single turn. So you can use Full Forward, cancel it with All Guard and still short range warp, all in the same turn. Players who aren't familiar with how things are supposed to be, will abuse this if not fixed.

3)I'm not sure if this counts as an issue but why are we getting the reward from enemy destruction twice? Once in Intel and once in Funds. Feels a bit like receiving double the usual credits in a way, except that you don't really have much to invest in for the Funds section. Had no idea what to do with the excess, but I'm thinking if this in-pouring of funds continues, I'm going to use rockets pretty frequently, as I have more funds than I know what to do with. Of course if we actually need to use the Funds in the storyline for other reasons, I dunno like maybe to help in rebuilding Cera then I guess it makes sense.


you did make me just change intel gains to be susceptible to the space whale tax, though :)

Noted. I think this makes good sense to be consistent with MoA and having the tax have an impact on upgrades. I'll restrict myself to not using the extra Intel in this playthrough.


More on other battles later but seems like some missions are actually tied to previous missions in MoA. That should cut down on people saying that previous decisions and missions don't matter. Definitely a good step forward and much appreciated!!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 01:23:08 pm by Drath »

Offline Histidine

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2015, 11:56:13 am »
Couple more non-balance things:
- The targeting reticule (in Battle UI/targeting_window.png) is kinda annoying. It covers up the armor value of the unit directly adjacent to the left, and partly obscures the flak value of its own unit (at least it draws over the background panel and not the number).
Screenshot


It should probably be drawn with units ordered from right to left instead.

- I found an interesting screenshot of the store while digging through the extracted files:
Spoiler

KILL DRONES
GIEF
NAO
PS: Sophita is officially now hottest waifu.

Offline Drath

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2015, 12:06:19 pm »
- I found an interesting screenshot of the store while digging through the extracted files:
Spoiler
KILL DRONES
GIEF
NAO
PS: Sophita is officially now hottest waifu.

Wow
Spoiler
killer drones
, yes yes. No wonder we're getting so much fundage. I guess they're going to be putting a lot more things in store. Nice find!  ;D
Come to think of it, I haven't seen the thruster/movement upgrades that we previously saw in the R&D screen that Sam showed or that Mirage special ability. (yes, yes I know Vaen said not to read too much into it... but still :P)

As for Sophita, I'm glad to see at least some people around here appreciate mature women. I was really beginning to think lolis were all people favored these days :P
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 12:11:26 pm by Drath »

Offline Marx-93

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2015, 12:57:02 pm »
As for Sophita, I'm glad to see at least some people around here appreciate mature women. I was really beginning to think lolis were all people favored these days :P

Shhhh! If they realize we don't support the eternal empire of lolidom we will be exiled of this forum...

Well, all in all, thanks Drath. Now I have a bit of time and can look forward to playing it! Also looking forwards to everything in the store.

On the funds thing, I in fact believe that having some extra funds can actually be quite good. Before, both rockets and repair drones were used as basically "boost" when you found a very hard mission or part you couldn't do without them; using them normally was just too inefficient in the long run. Now however, if you have some space with them that means you can actually use them organically simply as tactics: a Tank Sunrider, focusing on using Repair Drones, an alpha strike like the ones on old times, etc. All that can be used more freely and so develop new strategies that can be integrated during the play-through, instead of as one-notes to go through a difficult part. Or at least that's what I think, and was looking forward more with the division of intel and money.
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Offline Vaendryl

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2015, 01:58:37 pm »
Misc bugs/issues:
1)Shield Jam still lasts 2 turns (which is as it should be) despite the fact that when you apply it the first time, it looks like Shield Jam (1). At the the start of the next turn it looks like Shield Jam (0) but the effect of the debuff is still present. However, using Shield Jam again on an enemy unit at Shield Jam (0) does NOT increase the duration back to Shield Jam (1). Enemy shield power still drops but there is no increase in duration. So on the turn after Shield Jam (0), the debuff will disappear and you'll be forced to debuff again from scratch. If this is intended. I think it should be made clear to the players and if it isn't intended, then it should be fixed.

2)While you can now view CP after using an order, unfortunately you can also use orders multiple times in a single turn. So you can use Full Forward, cancel it with All Guard and still short range warp, all in the same turn. Players who aren't familiar with how things are supposed to be, will abuse this if not fixed.

3)I'm not sure if this counts as an issue but why are we getting the reward from enemy destruction twice? Once in Intel and once in Funds. Feels a bit like receiving double the usual credits in a way, except that you don't really have much to invest in for the Funds section. Had no idea what to do with the excess, but I'm thinking if this in-pouring of funds continues, I'm going to use rockets pretty frequently, as I have more funds than I know what to do with. Of course if we actually need to use the Funds in the storyline for other reasons, I dunno like maybe to help in rebuilding Cera then I guess it makes sense.
1) that doesn't sound right, Ill check that.
2) Sam actually told me to make this the new normal *shrug. spam all your CP in the same turn if you want to, it's fine :) will make it harder to use the VGC though!
3) Yeah, I thought so too. I guess we'll readjust credit gains later. then again, I myself don't fully know what sort of things will come (in the store) in the future. we'll see.

thanks once again for the elaborate feedback, Drath! We always greatly appreciate it  :D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 02:01:23 pm by Vaendryl »
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Offline Nehrak

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2015, 10:45:48 pm »
When I start the game it loads the main menu fine, but when I hit the "start" button, the game crashes and gives me the traceback error below.

I'm running the Mac version on El Capitan, if that helps.

Code: [Select]
I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00start.rpy", line 209, in script
    python:
  File "renpy/common/00start.rpy", line 213, in <module>
    renpy.call_in_new_context("_main_menu")
Exception: Creating subsurface failed. child size = (1800.0, 1380.0), crop = (0, 0, 1908.0, 728.0)

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/bootstrap.py", line 281, in bootstrap
    renpy.main.main()
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/main.py", line 466, in main
    run(restart)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/main.py", line 142, in run
    renpy.execution.run_context(True)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/execution.py", line 700, in run_context
    context.run()
  File "renpy/common/00start.rpy", line 209, in script
    python:
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/ast.py", line 797, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/python.py", line 1448, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/00start.rpy", line 213, in <module>
    renpy.call_in_new_context("_main_menu")
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/game.py", line 309, in call_in_new_context
    return renpy.execution.run_context(False)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/execution.py", line 700, in run_context
    context.run()
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 29, in script
    $ ui.interact()
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/ast.py", line 797, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/python.py", line 1448, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 29, in <module>
    $ ui.interact()
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/ui.py", line 277, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/core.py", line 2346, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, **kwargs)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/core.py", line 2683, in interact_core
    self.draw_screen(root_widget, fullscreen_video, (not fullscreen_video) or video_frame_drawn)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/core.py", line 1785, in draw_screen
    renpy.config.screen_height,
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 394, in renpy.display.render.render_screen (gen/renpy.display.render.c:6190)
    rv = render(root, width, height, 0, 0)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/layout.py", line 650, in render
    surf = render(child, width, height, cst, cat)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/layout.py", line 650, in render
    surf = render(child, width, height, cst, cat)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/layout.py", line 650, in render
    surf = render(child, width, height, cst, cat)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/screen.py", line 610, in render
    child = renpy.display.render.render(self.child, w, h, st, at)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/layout.py", line 650, in render
    surf = render(child, width, height, cst, cat)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "renpy/display/accelerator.pyx", line 104, in renpy.display.accelerator.transform_render (gen/renpy.display.accelerator.c:1904)
    cr = render(child, widtho, heighto, st - self.child_st_base, at)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/layout.py", line 995, in render
    st, at)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 185, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2721)
    rv = d.render(widtho, heighto, st, at)
  File "/Users/Robert/Downloads/SunriderLiberationDay-B10-all/renpy/display/layout.py", line 650, in render
    surf = render(child, width, height, cst, cat)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 103, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:3104)
    cpdef render(d, object widtho, object heighto, double st, double at):
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 194, in renpy.display.render.render (gen/renpy.display.render.c:2897)
    rv = rv.subsurface((0, 0, rv.width, rv.height), focus=True)
  File "renpy/display/render.pyx", line 783, in renpy.display.render.Render.subsurface (gen/renpy.display.render.c:10586)
    raise Exception("Creating subsurface failed. child size = ({}, {}), crop = {!r}".format(childw, childh, crop))
Exception: Creating subsurface failed. child size = (1800.0, 1380.0), crop = (0, 0, 1908.0, 728.0)

Darwin-15.0.0-x86_64-i386-64bit
Ren'Py 6.99.6.726
Sunrider Beta 10.00

Offline Drath

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2015, 04:02:38 pm »
Got up to 140 EN with Liberty for 2 Repairs per turn or 1 Disable and 1 FlakOff. Increased Phoenix's EN to 145 EN and reduced  melee cost. Some minor damage increases, that's about it for this round of upgrades, before Battle 3.
Was wondering if it was a mistake that I still couldn't quite afford Seraphim double kinetics. Rechecked old upgrade schemes in MoA, seems like its nearly 11k... no mistake there and it still costs the same. Welp I guess that will have to wait.


Battle 3 (Versta3)
A few general observations first:

Weapon balance is still holding up fine despite further upgrades. This battle features lots of mobile enemy units. Used both pulse and lasers on Blackjack and missiles of course were all used. Sunrider was heavy on pulse with all missiles used.

The new battle music here didn't do much for me. Sounded a little too repetitive and grindy. I actually turned it off and I usually turn on everything in previous battles. Anyway just my 2 cents on it, and one man's meat might be another man's poison...


Realized I more or less wrote down the damage distribution scheme for the important turns and some people would prefer to not be biased when starting the battle, so I've elected to keep the turn by turn breakdown of the battle in spoiler.


Spoiler
Used 6SRW!! (yes 6, Sunrider was a virtual Sunriderball (like a pinball but shaped like a SUnrider :P) in this battle lol) and 2 FF. Why so much SRW? Well I had to spend the excess CP somehow and using VGC seemed like a waste, so I used SRW for optimal repositioning and to retreat Sunrider if too exposed. Still adhering to old rules of only 1 order per turn except for SRW. Finished with 4k CP going into next battle.


Turn 1, focussed the immediate, bigger group as the smaller group of 4 units are quite some distance away. FF as usual.
Disabled Assault Carrier, Flak Off top Battleship. ShdJam x3 on top Battleship. Took out 3 mooks with Gunboats and 2 Frigates. Took out both Supports and another mook with Phoenix, advancing right down the center.
Bottom Battleship taken out with buffed Paladin kinetics x3, Seraphim kinetic, Alliance Cruiser kinetic, finished off with Gunboat assault.
Upper Fast Cruiser taken out with Blackjack pulse x2, finished off with Sunrider pulse.
Last upper mook taken out with Blackjack missiles and Gunboat assault.
Top Battleship taken out with Alliance Cruiser kinetic, Frigate laser, finished off with Sunrider missiles x3
Lower Fast Cruiser taken out with Alliance Cruiser missiles x2 and Blackjack missiles.
End of turn 1 was scary as that PACT destroyer from the smaller group actually launched a rocket this time (didn't expect that as the Destroyer in the Ion Storm just moved without firing). Fortunately it was intercepted but I can see it would have downed a few units had it hit.

Repairs on Sunrider before SRW down on next turn. Remaining mook in center group cleared with Gunboats. Phoenix clears 4 mooks with some help from Sunrider, Bianca triggering counterattacks for both. Flak Off back Cruiser, hit with Seraphim
Front Cruiser downed with Paladin kinetic, Alliance Cruiser kinetic, finished with Gunboat assaults. Assault Carrier downed with Paladin kinetic, Alliance Cruiser kinetic, Frigate laser x2, Paladin missiles x2, Blackjack pulse x3, finished with Gunboat assaults. New Destroyers killed with remaining Sunrider missiles. Old Destroyer killed with Sunrider pulse x2. SRW Sunrider back to safety.

Disable new top Assault Carrier. Phoenix melees spawned Bomber dragged into range by Bianca, finished off by Gunboat assault. Back Support downed with Phoenix melee. ShdJam front Support.
New bottom Assault Carrier downed with Paladin kinetics x3, Seraphim kinetic, Alliance Cruiser kinetic, Frigate laser x2, Sunrider pulse, finished off by Gunboat assault.
Front Support dragged into counterattacks by Sunrider and Phoenix, finished off by Frigate laser. SRW Sunrider to top group of Fast Cruisers.
Fast Cruiser1: Alliance Cruiser kinetic, Blackjack pulse, Gunboat assaults x2
Fast Cruiser2: Sunrider pulse, Blackjack pulse, Gunboat assaults x2
Fast Cruiser3: Sunrider pulse, Blackjack pulse, Gunboat assaults x2
Fast Cruiser4 (not downed): Sunrider pulse, Gunboat assaults x2

Turn 4 is relatively mild. FF reapplied. Phoenix cleans up bottom spawns, while Paladin dragged up by Bianca to hit Assault Carrier. All enemy units downed except Carrier and there is some leeway here to advance the fleet forward.

Another turn 5 with massive reinforcements similar to the battle before this. Disable Assault Carrier. SRW Sunrider into the heart of battle, right in front of the Fast Cruisers. ShdJam on Carrier and bottom Cruiser.
Top Cruiser downed with Paladin kinetics x2, Gunboat assaults x2
Bottom Cruiser downed with Paladin kinetic, Alliance Cruiser kinetic, Frigate laser, Gunboat assaults x2
Lowest Fast Cruiser downed with Seraphim kinetic, Sunrider pulse, Frigate laser, Gunboat assaults x2
2nd lowest Fast Cruiser downed with Blackjack laser, Sunrider pulse x2
Lowest Elite dragged into counterattacks by Sunrider and Phoenix, finished off by Phoenix melee.
Spawned Bomber killed with Phoenix melee, Frigate laser
2nd lowest Elite dragged into counterattacks by Sunrider and Phoenix, finished off by Phoenix melee.
Top Fast Cruiser downed with Blackjack laser, Alliance Cruiser laser, Sunrider pulse, finished off with Gunboat assault.
Stealthed and retreated Phoenix. SRW Sunrider back to flak/shield cover.

Stealth is working really well here (I managed to get Phoenix out of trouble by retreating a bit and using Stealth). Despite Phoenix not being in significant flak cover, enemy missiles/lasers were aimed at Sunrider (intended) which had warped back to a hex with cover from Paladin, Blackjack, an Alliance Cruiser, a Cera Gunboat and shielding from Liberty. If those Elites/Fast Cruiser had targeted Phoenix, it's possible I would have lost her.

Turn 6 was mostly cleanup, though I couldn't quite get that last carrier down as some units were not in good range and the mission ended on enemy's 6th turn.


Another good battle!! Haven't gotten into a position where using VGC would be a strong choice but I'm sure that will crop up at some point.



Misc issues/findings:
1)Asaga still has her True Awakening button in Battle 3, which can be toggled on (for 100EN) or off (for 0EN). I wasn't sure if this was really intended though, as there wasn't any cutscene so I decided not to use it. Probably my loss lol.

2)Concurrent buffs (ie Full Forward and ATK Up) are bugged when they expire, which results in only 1 buff expiring and the other remaining at the same duration.
Example: I used FF in turn 1 and also buffed Sunrider and Paladin with ATK Up. Things were fine until turn 4 when both buffs should expire. However what happened is only FF expired and ATK Up remains at 1 turn (Damage Up (1)). I then used FF again on turn 4.
On turn 5, ATK Up finally expired on Sunrider and Paladin. However FF duration on these 2 units were not reduced. Should be Full Forward (2), similar to all the other units, however Sunrider and Paladin still had Full Forward (3).

3)The Accuracy increase from Full Forward is weird. In MoA, this used to be a flat +15 to any weapon which was easy enough to understand. Now in Lib Day, it seems weapon dependent(?).
After using FF:
Alliance Cruiser kinetics gained 11 Accuracy, Alliance Cruiser lasers gained 18 Accuracy
Cera Gunboat assault gained 10 Accuracy
Blackjack assault gained 9 Accuracy, Blackjack lasers gained 17 Accuracy, Blackjack pulse gained 13 Accuracy.

It seems like the increase is dependent on initial accuracy, so weapons with higher accuracy initially are going to benefit more. Either that or the mouseover % figures for chance to hit are wrong.
If this IS intended please amend Full Forward tooltip to "+15%? of base accuracy" instead of "+15 Aim".
If this change is intended, Kinetics are going to benefit less from FF and will have to depend on accuracy upgrades to keep up. I hope people won't complain of increased randomness as a result.

4)Mission objective here was to survive for 7 turns, but the battle ended on enemy's 6th turn and I did not get to play turn 7. If you recall the "Hold 6 turns" mission just before fighting the Legion in MoA, survive 6 turns meant exactly 6 turns. IMHO it would be better to keep things consistent with previously used wording.
I missed out on killing the last PACT carrier (down to less than half hps) here, as I really thought there would be a turn 7. Oh well I can live without the extra credits I guess, but if I had known this earlier I would have just used a torpedo on it (so far haven't used any yet).


EDIT1:
5)Messed around yesterday with VGC, just to see if beam paths had changed and found to my horror that ships killed by VGC don't award any CP. That's quite different from the VGC video recently shown by Sam where CP IS awarded upon VGC kills. It's going to be a chore to rebuild CP again up from scratch if no CP is awarded by VGC kills, making the rest of the battle a quite a bit harder when new enemy reinforcements warp in (delayed FF, no SRW).
Personally if this is the way we are headed, I don't see myself using VGC much, unless I'm really in dire straits in that battle and desperately need to clear enemy units to survive the turn. I understand that there may be some fear that awarding full CP on VGC kills may propagate a cycle of repeated VGCs with the CPs from the previous VGC fueling the next one, potentially trivializing combat, but I think we're still quite some distance away from that. Maybe awarding less would be a nice compromise.


On CP generation and units:
I've wondered quite a bit as to which units to take out first to generate CP fast and I tend to be quite forgetful. So here's a short table attached for CP values (killed on turn 1, on Captain) and CP/hp ratio of ships for fast CP generation. As CP awards are essentially halved from beta 9 (good move as I think we're having too much CP anyway), credits from unit destruction are essentially the same as CP on a turn 1 kill on Captain. As can be seen from the table, the new PACT units have really good CP/hp and are probably what you want to take out first, if lacking CP to use another order (a likely scenario if one is recovering from having spent all on a VGC).


P/S - Oh, and I literally saw a "bug" in the code in classes.rpy...  LOL!!
This one seems harmless though and quite cute to boot :P
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 02:18:23 pm by Drath »

Offline Vaendryl

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2015, 04:00:10 pm »
When I start the game it loads the main menu fine, but when I hit the "start" button, the game crashes and gives me the traceback error below.
Code: [Select]
Exception: Creating subsurface failed. child size = (1800.0, 1380.0), crop = (0, 0, 1908.0, 728.0)
looks like renpy failed to do something - that's not really related to anything I do... you may want to redownload or otherwise the game just won't start on macs at all. I don't use macs so I really wouldn't know. sorry :(

Spoiler
Misc issues/findings:
1)Asaga still has her True Awakening button in Battle 3, which can be toggled on (for 100EN) or off (for 0EN). I wasn't sure if this was really intended though, as there wasn't any cutscene so I decided not to use it. Probably my loss lol.

2)Concurrent buffs (ie Full Forward and ATK Up) are bugged when they expire, which results in only 1 buff expiring and the other remaining at the same duration.
Example: I used FF in turn 1 and also buffed Sunrider and Paladin with ATK Up. Things were fine until turn 4 when both buffs should expire. However what happened is only FF expired and ATK Up remains at 1 turn (Damage Up (1)). I then used FF again on turn 4.
On turn 5, ATK Up finally expired on Sunrider and Paladin. However FF duration on these 2 units were not reduced. Should be Full Forward (2), similar to all the other units, however Sunrider and Paladin still had Full Forward (3).

3)The Accuracy increase from Full Forward is weird. In MoA, this used to be a flat +15 to any weapon which was easy enough to understand. Now in Lib Day, it seems weapon dependent(?).
After using FF:
Alliance Cruiser kinetics gained 11 Accuracy, Alliance Cruiser lasers gained 18 Accuracy
Cera Gunboat assault gained 10 Accuracy
Blackjack assault gained 9 Accuracy, Blackjack lasers gained 17 Accuracy, Blackjack pulse gained 13 Accuracy.

It seems like the increase is dependent on initial accuracy, so weapons with higher accuracy initially are going to benefit more. Either that or the mouseover % figures for chance to hit are wrong.
If this IS intended please amend Full Forward tooltip to "+15%? of base accuracy" instead of "+15 Aim".
If this change is intended, Kinetics are going to benefit less from FF and will have to depend on accuracy upgrades to keep up. I hope people won't complain of increased randomness as a result.

4)Mission objective here was to survive for 7 turns, but the battle ended on enemy's 6th turn and I did not get to play turn 7. If you recall the "Hold 6 turns" mission just before fighting the Legion in MoA, survive 6 turns meant exactly 6 turns. IMHO it would be better to keep things consistent with previously used wording.
I missed out on killing the last PACT carrier (down to less than half hps) here, as I really thought there would be a turn 7. Oh well I can live without the extra credits I guess, but if I had known this earlier I would have just used a torpedo on it (so far haven't used any yet).


EDIT1:
5)Messed around yesterday with VGC, just to see if beam paths had changed and found to my horror that ships killed by VGC don't award any CP. That's quite different from the VGC video recently shown by Sam where CP IS awarded upon VGC kills. It's going to be a chore to rebuild CP again up from scratch if no CP is awarded by VGC kills, making the rest of the battle a quite a bit harder when new enemy reinforcements warp in (delayed FF, no SRW).
Personally if this is the way we are headed, I don't see myself using VGC much, unless I'm really in dire straits in that battle and desperately need to clear enemy units to survive the turn. I understand that there may be some fear that awarding full CP on VGC kills may propagate a cycle of repeated VGCs with the CPs from the previous VGC fueling the next one, potentially trivializing combat, but I think we're still quite some distance away from that. Maybe awarding less would be a nice compromise.


On CP generation and units:
I've wondered quite a bit as to which units to take out first to generate CP fast and I tend to be quite forgetful. So here's a short table attached for CP values (killed on turn 1, on Captain) and CP/hp ratio of ships for fast CP generation. As CP awards are essentially halved from beta 9 (good move as I think we're having too much CP anyway), credits from unit destruction are essentially the same as CP on a turn 1 kill on Captain. As can be seen from the table, the new PACT units have really good CP/hp and are probably what you want to take out first, if lacking CP to use another order (a likely scenario if one is recovering from having spent all on a VGC).


P/S - Oh, and I literally saw a "bug" in the code in classes.rpy...  LOL!!
This one seems harmless though and quite cute to boot :P
1 I'm not sure but I'm guessing that's intentional or Sam would've removed it
2 I'll check that
3 I've confirmed that FF increases accuracy by a percentage instead of a flat amount. fixed on my side now.
4 Sam tends to mess with such things, but I'll have a look in the script
5 this is intentional. Sam specifically made me add the option to have targets not give CP on death just for the VGC. reasoning is that blowing up 2000 CP worth of bad guys just made it too easy to keep spamming it, though I'm not sure if it changes all that much. Especially since this was before all CP generation was halved. I think it's really more of a 'watch me blast apart my foes in an overly suggestive masculine manner' button rather than a sound tool in your stratagem toolkit anyway.
also, :p
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 04:02:41 pm by Vaendryl »
(╯□)╯︵ uoıʇdǝɔxǝ
latest version: 7.2
RTFW
Mark 5:9

Offline Heinrike

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2015, 10:41:10 am »
think it's really more of a 'watch me blast apart my foes in an overly suggestive masculine manner' button rather than a sound tool in your stratagem toolkit anyway.

FIRE THE SHIPDICK!!!



Spoiler

Offline AdaverXCII

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2015, 02:22:42 pm »
think it's really more of a 'watch me blast apart my foes in an overly suggestive masculine manner' button rather than a sound tool in your stratagem toolkit anyway.

FIRE THE SHIPDICK!!!

XD
BITE ME UNIVERSE [Aug 30, 2015, 05:58:08 PM]:   I wanna meet Heinrike so I can fuck her brains out but that's not happening.... XD
Geocorn [Oct 02, 2015, 07:59:56 PM]:   but 92 that's making the assumption that Hein is good looking :P
Revontulet [Nov 10, 2016, 05:48:02 pm]:   "Babe lets Do the math~ Add a bed, subtract your clothes, divide your legs, and Ill begin to multiply "
Revontulet [Jan 03, 2017, 01:14:04 pm]:   As much as Bemu cries out "Oh Yes Adaver", makes one wonder if newbies to the forum think Commbox is just about gay porn XD
Geocorn [Nov 30, 2017, 04:32:50 pm]:   Dee trying to post lewds probably.

Offline Drath

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2015, 02:11:17 pm »
Some replies to previous posts before I continue where I left off:

Do people really want to cut shield range for just 5,000 intel, though? It seems to me to be kind of an important stat for not getting chewed to death by things like mook blobs, especially with more units to cover now.

Yea I took off Shd Range as stated above. In MoA the first increment in shield range was 1000, now its 5000 and IMHO, 5k fuels enough offensive upgrades to likely make a difference. While it's nice to have extended shield cover, by having shielded ships take on more aggro via higher damage output/more kills, you can effectively roughly guess where enemy strikes will be directed at.
I might have to eat my words though, if we get a scenario where all enemy ships move first and we're limited to just an order (maybe All Guard), which would be extremely brutal on Space Whale. That would definitely, make the added Shield Range pretty vital. Until then I'm still banking on offensive upgrades for faster kills to limit incoming damage.

On the funds thing, I in fact believe that having some extra funds can actually be quite good. Before, both rockets and repair drones were used as basically "boost" when you found a very hard mission or part you couldn't do without them; using them normally was just too inefficient in the long run. Now however, if you have some space with them that means you can actually use them organically simply as tactics: a Tank Sunrider, focusing on using Repair Drones, an alpha strike like the ones on old times, etc.

Yea I agree that has a certain appeal to it. The Pacemus battle features units with humongous hps which also need rather urgent burst to take out, so that fits this theme just fine. For most other battles so far, IMHO, things are still more or less balanced enough for non-rocket tactics to be perfectly viable.

1 I'm not sure but I'm guessing that's intentional or Sam would've removed it

5 this is intentional. Sam specifically made me add the option to have targets not give CP on death just for the VGC. reasoning is that blowing up 2000 CP worth of bad guys just made it too easy to keep spamming it, though I'm not sure if it changes all that much. Especially since this was before all CP generation was halved.

On Asaga's Awakening, I've rethought the matter after you said it was likely intended and felt that it probably isn't really that overpowered. -100EN to activate it essentially cripples Blackjack for the entire turn. Maybe she can use 1 missile, but that's about it. Also turn 1 is a pretty tight turn in terms of damage. If used later, say on turn 4, it would be a good deal safer but then I wonder if there would be enough added damage in later turns to justify the near-complete loss of damage in the turn it is used.

On VGC's no-CP kills, hmm, well I don't think it's easy to spam it on Space Whale, which was my point of view essentially. As long as it's not easy on Captain, that should be acceptable. It's quite possible that it becomes spammable on lower difficulties, and I probably shouldn't speak for other players, but personally I'm fine with making it easier for them. IMHO people don't choose lower difficulties for a hard time and some just like seeing VGC in action.

think it's really more of a 'watch me blast apart my foes in an overly suggestive masculine manner' button rather than a sound tool in your stratagem toolkit anyway.

FIRE THE SHIPDICK!!!

XD

Introducing... <insert drumroll>
The Sordid Steamy Stimulator (a new store item, marketed by Virility Inc.)
This expensive package of various items is captioned as "Ride the sun and shoot for the stars". While some may decry the use of steam as primitive, superheated steam has tremendous internal energy which can be released to relieve the pressure.
Coupled with a stimulatory burst of electronic eroge uploads to the ship's computer circuits, this energizes the system immediately for urgent repeat performances.

COST: 15k funds
USE: Refills CP to 4k instantly (ONE time use consumable, combat only, unless feeling really horny)

Don't ask me what I just wrote. And no it doesn't make any sense. I dunno what came over me either :P


*************************************************************************************

Pre-Battle 4 upgrades:
Wasn't really sure at this juncture, on what upgrades to go for. Still angling for Seraphim double kinetics but made a rough bang for the buck assessment (damage increase per point of Intel invested) and other options came out slightly better. Ended up with some more EN for Phoenix and some minor damage upgrades for the main damage dealers (Sunrider, Paladin, Blackjack).

Liberty just got her EN upgrade to 140 and as she's support, I don't foresee spending more here in the immediate future.

Same issue with Bianca, mostly a support role. AtkUp (24% added damage when combined with FF) stacks with other buffs, costs the same EN to use as a regular kinetic shot, and can be worth more, damage-wise when cast on a strong unit (ie 250 base kinetic dmg vs 387 added kinetic dmg for Paladin (triple shot at 540 per kinetic)). Frequently either AtkUp x2 or Gravity Gun x3 (triggering multiple counters with Phoenix + Sunrider repositioned with SRW)) is better damage output when appropriately used so no compelling reason to upgrade her kinetics at this point.

Also I miss the upgrade costs table from MoA. When I'm not sure what to pick, I usually have a look at the table and things would become a little clearer. Now I have to click to see where things are headed, jot the figures down and compare manually. I figure maybe I'm one of the odd folks who actually do this, but yea having that upgrade costs table made it easier for me.

Speaking of unit upgrades, while the Mining Union Frigate hasn't really changed, stat-wise, we're actually pretty lucky that the Alliance Cruiser has been very substantially buffed, where the biggest enhancement is for missiles, going from 350 to 560 dmg (60% increment). Other weapons also enjoy smaller boosts, laser (25% increment), assault (16.67% increment), kinetic (6.25% increment). All this is actually now updated in the wiki. Thanks Histiekins!! That's fast and efficient for you peeps. xD
While these changes are probably all done for balance purposes, I do think they also make fairly good sense lore-wise. Wartime is the time where military arms/armor upgrades and development are prioritized. Being one of the major galaxy factions with good technological know-how, it's fairly natural that some of these upgrades and enhancements would make it to the forefront of battle, now that war has been going on between Alliance and PACT for quite a while. PACT Cruisers on the other hand haven't seen too much change. Perhaps PACT funnelled their research money into Fast Cruiser research. Obviously this was caused by too many people using kinetics :P


As I think some players might want to try out their own tactics first before reading others, I have elected to keep the details and turn by turn observations for Battle 4, in spoilers.

Spoiler
Battle 4 (Pacemus):
Used 2FF, 5SRW and 1AG. What started here as a fairly standard battle, albeit against a good many pirate units (that must be a record for number of Grunts in a single battle), ended up being a tense and very bizarre battle against Ryuvian units.

Turn 1:
21 units here in all and unlike MoA, grunts can do considerable damage with missiles, if left alone in sufficient numbers. So the goal here is to take out as many small units as possible. I knew I wouldn't have the firepower to get rid off 2 Bases, so I had to disable one, in this case the center one for best reduction of flak/shield cover. Hopefully destroy 1 Base and soak the damage from the non-disabled pirate Base. ShdJam on non-disabled Bases. SRW Sunrider into a good position to aid Phoenix in counterattacks and FF as usual.
Take out 3 Grunts from the lower group with 3 Grav Gun mediated Phoenix + Sunrider counterattacks. Phoenix stealths and takes out the 2 bombers. One more Grunt in lower group taken out with 2 Gunboat assaults, 1 Frigate laser. Upper group of 5 Grunts taken out with 3 Gunboat assaults, 1 Gunboat assault/1 Blackjack pulse, 1 Gunboat assault/1 Blackjack pulse, 1 Alliance Cruiser missiles, 1 Blackjack missiles.
Top Ironhog taken out with Seraphim kinetic, finished off with Frigate laser. FlakOff bottom Ironhog, subsequently taken out with Sunrider missiles. 3 Destroyers taken out with Sunrider missiles. Last Destroyer taken out with Alliance Cruiser missiles, finished off with Gunboat assault. Pirate Base destroyed with Paladin kinetics x2, Alliance Cruiser kinetics x2, Frigate laser x1, Paladin missiles x2, Blackjack missiles x1
That leaves us with 2 Bases (1 disabled) and 1 Grunt. Damage was split between Sunrider and Phoenix due to proximity and was quite soakable.

Turn 2:
Fairly relaxed turn. SRW Sunrider back for repairs. Buffed Paladin's damage and finished off both bases. Kinetics first as usual, followed by lasers, pulse upon hitting mid armor ranges and finally assault to finish the job. Gunboats took care of the remaining Grunt. However to my surprise, the victory screen didn't show up upon destruction of the last pirate unit, so apparently something more was afoot here (btw, this is a good way to handle reinforcements so that players don't miss out on extra Intel/funds). I decided to close ranks and reposition slightly forwards.

Turn 3:
A pretty hellish turn as there is a ton of enemy hp here (essentially more than twice the hp totals of the original pirate fleet (26601 vs 13010)). Notwithstanding the fact that they also have much, much better defenses, in terms of shields, flak, armor and very high evasion, so those hps are a lot harder to deplete. I had also more or less exhausted my missiles at this point... so I knew I was pretty much in for it.
Disable on Ryuvian Falcon. When faced with an enemy you don't know, who sports "over 9000!!! :P" hps and 150EN, and already engaged with a bunch of Nightmares that you can't take down in time, I think it's prudent to prevent said unknown overpowered unit from complicating matters further. Only managed to down 1 Nightmare here, which is rather shabby. On hindsight, I think it might have been possible to down an extra Nightmare here, by using torpedoes after a FlakOff, which I probably should have done. In any case, Phoenix is definitely the star of the battle, from now onwards, dealing up to 3600 displayed dmg (900x4) per turn.

The goal here is to get the enemy to ignore Phoenix despite her high damage output and close proximity and to hopefully entice the enemy to focus either Paladin, Blackjack or Sunrider. I wasn't totally successful as I still suffered losses here but they were acceptable.

To make things worse, Paladin is unfortunately completely out of kinetic range here. Decided to just run with it, use Drawfire instead to hopefully help keep attention off Phoenix, advance a little and use assault to get the finishing blow on the nearest Nightmare dragged forward by Bianca.
Meleed lead Nightmare twice with Phoenix then dragged it forward into the open. ShdJam x6, on lead Nightmare and it is then pummelled with the remaining lasers I have (Blackjack, Alliance Cruisers), pulsed x3 by a Sunrider SRWed into point blank range and finished off by a few Gunboat and Paladin assaults. Hit 2nd Nightmare with Awakened Seraphim kinetic, Phoenix melee x2 and the last Sunrider missile after FlakOff. Didn't quite managed to down it though.

SRW Sunrider back into flak cover and retreated Gunboats in a cluster around it and Paladin. Applied All Guard to weather the incoming barrage. Stealthed Phoenix because dead dps does no dps.

On the enemy's turn, some of the Ryuvian Cruisers seemed confused. One moved back and forth a bit which must have wasted its energy before firing. Another just moved forward without actually firing (perhaps it assessed that missiles had little chance of getting through the flak and decided to aim for kinetics instead). Anyway with good flak provided by a fairly bunched up group (Sunrider, Paladin, Phoenix out in front, 2 Alliance Cruisers and the 4 Gunboats), further boosted with All Guard, not many got through. Nightmares were a different story though, their missiles and lasers chewed up a Gunboat and brought Paladin down to 1/3rd hps.
In summary, I am pleased with how Stealth and Drawfire are currently working and I do feel that they are both strong tools for aggro management.


Turn 4:
A good turn for damage as some of the Ryuvian Cruisers are now in kinetic range. Reapplied FF and focussed on downing the incoming group of 2 Nightmares and 3 Ryuvian Cruisers.
Damaged Nightmare is downed with Phoenix melee x1 and a few Gunboat assaults. Full hp Nightmare is downed with Awakened Seraphim kinetic, Phoenix melee x3, dragged into point blank range, Sunrider kinetic, finished off with a few Gunboat assaults.
Lead Ryuvian Cruiser taken out with Paladin kinetics x1, Alliance Cruiser kinetics x2, finished off with Gunboat assault x1.
2nd Ryuvian Cruiser taken out with Paladin kinetics x2, finished off with Gunboat assaults x4.
3rd Ryuvian Cruiser Shdjammed x3, and taken out with Blackjack lasers x2, Frigate lasers x3, and Sunrider's pulse.
Disabled remaining Nightmare instead, hoping that the Ryuvian Falcon saddled with Aim Down would move into range for an easier strike at it. Took care to shield Paladin sufficiently as she had low hps at this point and Drawfire was still active. Phoenix stealths again this turn, as it is exposed out in the open. The Falcon advanced and went after Sunrider instead, the closer, easier to hit, unshielded target.

Turn 5:
This turn, the last Nightmare and Ryuvian Cruiser are finished off. Phoenix on Nightmare as usual. The other units were too far to reliably hit it, even with lasers, so I SRWed Sunrider ahead into point blank range and downed it with pulse. Downed the last Ryuvian Cruiser with Blackjack lasers x2, Alliance Cruiser lasers x1, Frigate lasers x3, Gunboat assault. Paladin manages some damage on the Ryuvian Falcon when she connects. Disabled Falcon again.
As Bianca has no chance in hell of hitting Ryuvian ryders or the Falcon, she's relegated to Grav Gun duty (triggering counters on ryders or improving accuracy for friendly units) and renewing AtkUp buffs. Suppressive Fire from Gunboats is very useful here against Nightmares.

Turn 6+Turn 7:
These 2 turns are basically devoted to whittling down the health of the Ryuvian Falcon. It has 100 armor (even more armor than the Legion (80 armor)), so attacks on it do take quite a while. Kinetics are not a viable choice unless the unit in question is very close to the Falcon. Pulse is also mostly out of the question with the crazy armor (opted for lasers instead). Assault is done just for the lulz (8 damage is better than nothing :P). And so the only unit that does good damage against it
is Awakened Seraphim. Once again Suppressive Fire helps out with accuracy issues. Disabled it again on turn 6 (wasn't going to risk letting it loose at close range, with all my units clustered around it for a better shot) and did repairs on turn 7.

This is another colorful battle which provides good challenge/threat and has a nice reward at the end of it. I can't decide whether I prefer this battle or the ion storm one. I guess I'll put them both as tied for best. :)
Also, I strongly feel Ava and Kayto must be endowed with ESP. They both made guesses and they both turned out to be right lol.

Even without playing any further, it is pretty obvious to me that this is already the best beta for me so far, amongst the 3 LibDay betas. So here's a keep up the good work from me. :)


P/S - I messed around some more with the bug on FF and ATK Up buffs not expiring properly and I don't think its only confined to those two. Later on I've seen instances where ATK Up prevents Aim Up from expiring properly and Drawfire (Sentinel) preventing offensive buffs from expiring. Funnily some combos are ok though, like Stealth expiring doesn't affect FF, and when FF was concurrent with ATK Up and Aim Up, only the ATK Up buff did not tick down in duration when FF expired, whereas Aim Up did. I know it sounds confusing but I hope you'll have a look at the whole system, with a focus on what happens when buffs/debuff expire, because it seems like that's where things get a little messed up.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 03:49:25 pm by Drath »

Offline Ezstarius

Re: Sunrider Beta 10.00 Released
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2015, 02:46:14 am »
I've finished my second run through this beta though I don't have anything new to report since everything I noticed (and many things I didn't) have already been picked up on by those more observant than I.  I'm glad to hear that the voice overs will be reinstated in the near future, however, is there any plan to reintroduce the short cutscenes of our units discharging their weapons as we had in MoA?  No doubt not everyone was overly fond of them, but I found that it made the combat much more vivid.  Actually seeing the weapons fall into position and blaze away combined with the audio (especially the deep, thunderous barrage of the Sunriders Saviours) was so immersive.  More than that though, the ship and mecha designs in Sunrider are absolutely gorgeous, and one doesn't get to appreciate that when looking at them from afar on the tactical map.  It seems like such a waste to not be able to witness their awesomeness up close as they rain hell upon the enemy.  I've played nearly 100 hours of MoA and I still watch each of those animations, though I do skip the enemy animations from time to time.  Honestly, the new system of just showing the weapon fire would be fine for enemies, since there are so many of them!   

Are the weapon sounds in Liberation Day here to stay?  In my purely subjective opinion, they all sound underwhelming compared to what we had in MoA.  The weapon sounds and lack of the old combat animations are about the only changes from MoA that I am not quite happy with.  It is a rather selfish request, but would it be possible to see them both reinstated?  Or perhaps have an option to use them even though that would require more work from you?
Nemo ante mortem beatus.