Author Topic: I don't know how to feel about Liberation Day not having english va's?  (Read 5384 times)

Offline Pal

* Pal derails the conversation by stating that he has patted vae for bringing us this information *

Heinrike [Nov 10, 2016, 11:00:11 am]: I'm bored too, but otherwise bored  Elvis Strunk [Dec 14, 2015, 01:43:59 AM]: Would make it easier to keep track of all the characters, at least. "They're all dead."
Eonymia [Dec 15, 2016, 10:14:17 pm]: Losers don't win, do drugs Arraxis [Feb 18, 2017, 03:12:47 am]: Slither me timbers

Offline AkioKlaus

seeing as this thread is pretty active I'd just like to drop in and mention that we're hard at work adding english voices back into the battles at least. you can help test an experimental patch that features this by downloading it here

thx for linking.
I keep forget that sunrider forum does updates now.
Currently- No good college game design student, too much anime in life
-Ai,doru Daisuki!-

Offline SharrOfRyuvia

Academy wasn't ks funded last I knew.
Academy was mainly programming and the same bgs over and over, with a few hcgs and limited sprites. Art was updated yes, and that's part of the reason he charged for it. As well, part of the reason LibDay was charged. It's not just the VA work. He originally planned it all to be free but multiple issues caused that to change.

Again, budget isn't the main issue as to why it's 1/3 content. Part if it was the story ran it's course.
What exactly do you think all that money went to? More importantly, where else do you think they could have got the money from but ks? 

You're completely missing the point - was never about whether or not LD should or shouldn't have been charged for. It's that the VA work seems the likely reason there was massively-reduced story content;
- Academy = several hours of story content, no VA's
- LD = About one hour of story content, full VA's
Those are the rough figures when you remove battle-time/datesim-time from the two. You really can't see the comparison being drawn here? They both had better artwork, but one was far shorter story-wise.

Um... obviously not. If the story "ran it's course", it wouldn't need to be broken up between smaller entries at all - thats a contradictory statement. Also doesn't explain lack of choices or current lack of impact from past choices (with the sole exception seeming to be what was done about the Legion). And again, Samu-Kun's admitted to cutting story out because of budget - that was an issue back in MoA.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 05:34:30 pm by SharrOfRyuvia »

Offline Marx-93

You're completely missing the point - was never about whether or not LD should or shouldn't have been charged for. It's that the VA work seems the likely reason there was massively-reduced story content;

Actually, Samu-kun debunked this himself in his posts in the other forum. He basically said that VA took him only four days (because he subcontracted a company to do the crunchiest tasks for him), and that the reason there was so little plot was due to all the extra attention to the gameplay. He simply thought people played Sunrider more for the gameplay than for the plot, and thus it had a relatively low priority, compared to Academy where the gameplay was secondary and the main point the plot.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

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Offline SharrOfRyuvia

You're completely missing the point - was never about whether or not LD should or shouldn't have been charged for. It's that the VA work seems the likely reason there was massively-reduced story content;

Actually, Samu-kun debunked this himself in his posts in the other forum. He basically said that VA took him only four days (because he subcontracted a company to do the crunchiest tasks for him), and that the reason there was so little plot was due to all the extra attention to the gameplay. He simply thought people played Sunrider more for the gameplay than for the plot, and thus it had a relatively low priority, compared to Academy where the gameplay was secondary and the main point the plot.

I don't see how that's "debunked" - how does the length of time it took to record equate at all to the COST of it? Hell, saying he subcontracted a company would point to that eating up MORE of the damn budget.

Plus, you missed the point as well. See, my point is that the more lines there are to pay for voicing, the less money is left to spend on the story (coding choices, writing them out, ect). And the more lines you write, the bigger the amount you have to pay to have it all voiced. I feel like THAT was a big contributor to how this turned out.

And... I'm going to be honest, but that last reason really does sound like total bullshit to me. Pretty much everyone UNANIMOUSLY claimed the story was what they liked, not the gameplay - he even had a damn vote for what the most-liked element was in the game on his twitter and "deep story, lore" came in a landslide over "sharp visuals, image" (though was second to "For space girlfriend" - though choosing said waifu plays into the story-lore bit as well). In fact, I don't see how he could possibly have ever believed gameplay was the sole element people liked when they were either praising the story or the way the elements blended EQUALLY. Plus, TBH, the gameplay's not all that different - or at least it doesn't feel that different.

Offline Marx-93

The only writer at LiS is Samu-kun, so in this case his time actually equals written script. And no, I haven't missed your point, just answered what Samu-kun said, together with the fact that he said that the cost of VAs was actually not that big, and in no way limited the size of the script.

Now, if you don't believe him, then ok. Though then I can't answer you because I have no other information. I know however VAs in Japan can be relatively cheap, like we have said, so I can believe him when he said it didn't limit the size of the script (it makes sense when looking at it from a numerical perspective too: I know an "average dub" in the states can cost from 50k to 500k depending on quality and number of more lines (as a note, big JRPGs can have more than 10.000 lines); Academy and Patreon clearly managed around the higher that together, so I can believe his average Japanese dub of around 2.000 lines didn't affect the budget that much). For the rest, well, I kinda agree, but it wouldn't be the first airhead dumb mistake of Samu-kun, so for now I'll follow the official statement.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline Shirley

Honestly, I've given this the best shot I got short of telling you everything I know about game design.
Last I knew you bothered wooly to death about his novelization for literally no reason other than you felt it should be rewritten because it it didn't satisfy your idea of how it should be written. That was opinion based did and he didn't have to even address anything you said because it literally was his novel and he could do whatever he wants with it.

I've given you all possible reasons and explanations about why it's not to your standard, and the end result, because you don't agree with the answer and it's not the answer of "he's going to write more because you want it", you reject anything anyone says by saying "I'm not buying it."

I'm done.
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!! Because you all suck and need to lighten up  Me In a Nutshell
KomiTsuku [Sep 22, 2015, 03:43:44 PM]:But tentacle monsters are our friends. BITE ME UNIVERSE [Oct 16, 2016, 09:21:04 pm]:   because one type of forbidden love just isn't enough Afro-Kun [Facebook Nov 21, 2015, 22:40:01 PM]: "I WAS JUST HANDED TEA AND THEN; Friend: "I put the tea in "NTR"!" FRIEND PLS"

Offline Geocorn

Sharr like, at worst it maybe added $2 to the cost of the game... the reason it has less content than SA has nothing to do with the Japanese VAs it's because Samu-kun decided to release LD unfinished (and I'm glad that he did because I didn't want to wait). Anyway, the topic of this thread was about missing the English VAs not knocking Samu-kun's game-design abilities... Also awesome to see that LiS people still pay attention to these forums lol

Offline Shirley

Sharr like, at worst it maybe added $2 to the cost of the game... the reason it has less content than SA has nothing to do with the Japanese VAs it's because Samu-kun decided to release LD unfinished (and I'm glad that he did because I didn't want to wait). Anyway, the topic of this thread was about missing the English VAs not knocking Samu-kun's game-design abilities... Also awesome to see that LiS people still pay attention to these forums lol

Thanks Geo.

(And that does play into game design)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 05:03:56 pm by BITE ME UNIVERSE »
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!! Because you all suck and need to lighten up  Me In a Nutshell
KomiTsuku [Sep 22, 2015, 03:43:44 PM]:But tentacle monsters are our friends. BITE ME UNIVERSE [Oct 16, 2016, 09:21:04 pm]:   because one type of forbidden love just isn't enough Afro-Kun [Facebook Nov 21, 2015, 22:40:01 PM]: "I WAS JUST HANDED TEA AND THEN; Friend: "I put the tea in "NTR"!" FRIEND PLS"

Offline SharrOfRyuvia

The only writer at LiS is Samu-kun, so in this case his time actually equals written script. And no, I haven't missed your point, just answered what Samu-kun said, together with the fact that he said that the cost of VAs was actually not that big, and in no way limited the size of the script.

Now, if you don't believe him, then ok. Though then I can't answer you because I have no other information. I know however VAs in Japan can be relatively cheap, like we have said, so I can believe him when he said it didn't limit the size of the script (it makes sense when looking at it from a numerical perspective too: I know an "average dub" in the states can cost from 50k to 500k depending on quality and number of more lines (as a note, big JRPGs can have more than 10.000 lines); Academy and Patreon clearly managed around the higher that together, so I can believe his average Japanese dub of around 2.000 lines didn't affect the budget that much). For the rest, well, I kinda agree, but it wouldn't be the first airhead dumb mistake of Samu-kun, so for now I'll follow the official statement.
It STILL feels like you are missing my point. My point is that if you have to pay to completely voice a game, the price for that naturally increases the more lines there are to have voiced! So paying for that at all limits how much story you can write - because you can't write more then you can afford to voice. Say that all you (or he) like, but it doesn't alter the discrepancy in time and plot-depth between LD and Academy one bit. And yeah, maybe it is just what I think, but it's really hard to ignore how the situation looks.

Thing is, you specifically brought up that Samu-Kun didn't do any of that price-searching - he outsourced an entire company to do it for him.  Plus there are other factors to consider (not being a big-rep JRPG developer for one and thus having to outsource all the way from the states).

Updated: March 08, 2016, 05:29:15 pm
Honestly, I've given this the best shot I got short of telling you everything I know about game design.
Last I knew you bothered wooly to death about his novelization for literally no reason other than you felt it should be rewritten because it it didn't satisfy your idea of how it should be written. That was opinion based did and he didn't have to even address anything you said because it literally was his novel and he could do whatever he wants with it.

I've given you all possible reasons and explanations about why it's not to your standard, and the end result, because you don't agree with the answer and it's not the answer of "he's going to write more because you want it", you reject anything anyone says by saying "I'm not buying it."

I'm done.

???

What?? What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, I don't agree with how Wooly did some things in the Novel, but I don't remember ever demanding he change anything.

Updated: March 08, 2016, 05:37:37 pm
Sharr like, at worst it maybe added $2 to the cost of the game... the reason it has less content than SA has nothing to do with the Japanese VAs it's because Samu-kun decided to release LD unfinished (and I'm glad that he did because I didn't want to wait). Anyway, the topic of this thread was about missing the English VAs not knocking Samu-kun's game-design abilities... Also awesome to see that LiS people still pay attention to these forums lol
But that was my whole point - that having VA's for the whole game in general feels like it became a limiter on what was written because you can't write more lines then you can afford to voice. And after all the statements saying he wouldn't do that because he outright said it would bite him in the ass to push an unfinished sub-par product out... him doing so anyway would seem a bonehead, or just odd, move.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 06:44:57 pm by SharrOfRyuvia »

Offline Marx-93

It STILL feels like you are missing my point. My point is that if you have to pay to completely voice a game, the price for that naturally increases the more lines there are to have voiced! So paying for that at all limits how much story you can write - because you can't write more then you can afford to voice. Say that all you (or he) like, but it doesn't alter the discrepancy in time and plot-depth between LD and Academy one bit. And yeah, maybe it is just what I think, but it's really hard to ignore how the situation looks.

Thing is, you specifically brought up that Samu-Kun didn't do any of that price-searching - he outsourced an entire company to do it for him.  Plus there are other factors to consider (not being a big-rep JRPG developer for one and thus having to outsource all the way from the states).

I'm not missing the point because I understand that, it's just that increase is not significant. If you record 2.000 lines and it's 50.000, then maybe recording 2.250 lines is 55.000. Which is something perfectly adjustable given both patreon and Sunrider Academy. And he outsourced it through Sekai project (if that wasn't obvious), which already has a lot of experience with it (that and outsourcing sound engineering is actually something extremely normal: is doing it in the house that is actually seen as amateurish in most cases).

And there's a discrepancy with Academy and LD scripts, nobody is denying that. What I'm denying however is that Japanese voice acting really has something to do with it, both because the official dev has come out to say it and because the reasons he states actually make sense with the knowledge I have and what I've seen in the industry.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline AkioKlaus

(forgot slapping existed. hehe)

also in japan they also pay by hour.
and outsourcing is obvious. You expect him to go to japan or have them send cellphone recorded voice back and forth which would take months and cost alot? company in japan can gather the VA one by one and have them crack it in days,
(think of how animations get english voices in their show. They outsource to companies in US or in japan who does this stuff.)





also shifting this thread to sunrider forum should have happend long ago. hyperspace has lost its space for while now. You will get more professional answer from there *wink*

also FYI i dont know why no one mentioned this but Samu-kun never had money issue with voice actor for story length. He already did this at Academy saying 'Not voicing story because I don't wish to waste money when I change the dialogue.'

its more of he finished story and does not plan to change it, and he is confident enough so he can have voice actors read the script.

also how do people beat this game in one hour, are they skipping battles?  will relate it to how fire emblem's story is total shet if you auto play every battle.
Currently- No good college game design student, too much anime in life
-Ai,doru Daisuki!-

Offline SharrOfRyuvia


I'm not missing the point because I understand that, it's just that increase is not significant. If you record 2.000 lines and it's 50.000, then maybe recording 2.250 lines is 55.000. Which is something perfectly adjustable given both patreon and Sunrider Academy. And he outsourced it through Sekai project (if that wasn't obvious), which already has a lot of experience with it (that and outsourcing sound engineering is actually something extremely normal: is doing it in the house that is actually seen as amateurish in most cases).

And there's a discrepancy with Academy and LD scripts, nobody is denying that. What I'm denying however is that Japanese voice acting really has something to do with it, both because the official dev has come out to say it and because the reasons he states actually make sense with the knowledge I have and what I've seen in the industry.
Is that hypothetical or definitive pricing? Does it also count the fee/share of the pie that Sekai Project got - not just for the lines but out of Academy's sales as well?

It doesn't seem like what you're saying is the same as getting my point, if only because it seems... too convenient a change between the games. I'm likely not going to budge on that, even if it ends up that you're right - hell, maybe I just don't wanna buy that Samu-Kun made what I think is such a massive production blunder with LD's story by choice. Point of fact being that this conversation's quickly going nowhere :P

Updated: March 08, 2016, 08:54:19 pm
(forgot slapping existed. hehe)

also in japan they also pay by hour.
and outsourcing is obvious. You expect him to go to japan or have them send cellphone recorded voice back and forth which would take months and cost alot? company in japan can gather the VA one by one and have them crack it in days,
(think of how animations get english voices in their show. They outsource to companies in US or in japan who does this stuff.)





also shifting this thread to sunrider forum should have happend long ago. hyperspace has lost its space for while now. You will get more professional answer from there *wink*

also FYI i dont know why no one mentioned this but Samu-kun never had money issue with voice actor for story length. He already did this at Academy saying 'Not voicing story because I don't wish to waste money when I change the dialogue.'

its more of he finished story and does not plan to change it, and he is confident enough so he can have voice actors read the script.

also how do people beat this game in one hour, are they skipping battles?  will relate it to how fire emblem's story is total shet if you auto play every battle.

It's not possible to skip the battles, you know.

And regarding the other forums... something must be up with my search-filters, because I can't ever find any other 'Sunrider Forums' aside from this one. How 'bout someone give me a link to the things?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 08:58:12 pm by SharrOfRyuvia »

Offline Geocorn



also shifting this thread to sunrider forum should have happend long ago. hyperspace has lost its space for while now. You will get more professional answer from there *wink*

Nope the community exists here, as it always has. Not our fault LiS chooses to ignore that. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has no intention of migrating.

Offline Marx-93

Is that hypothetical or definitive pricing? Does it also count the fee/share of the pie that Sekai Project got - not just for the lines but out of Academy's sales as well?

It doesn't seem like what you're saying is the same as getting my point, if only because it seems... too convenient a change between the games. I'm likely not going to budge on that, even if it ends up that you're right - hell, maybe I just don't wanna buy that Samu-Kun made what I think is such a massive production blunder with LD's story by choice. Point of fact being that this conversation's quickly going nowhere :P
Link to the new forums here

Sadly hypothetical. All of this protected by NDAs, and in Japan they take them even more seriously than here, so we likely have no hope for official numbers.

And don't worry, I get you (even in your refusal that I don't get you). I've also kinda been shocked at some of what he said, and at the beginning I thought the voices had the fault too. It was when I started thinking, making numbers, and comparing with some similar cases (EVNs that got Japanese voice-overs) that I decided to believe Samu-kun. Really, diversity in this kind of things can't hurt as long as we can at least agree on the facts.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home