Author Topic: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders  (Read 33330 times)

Offline SeleneDrakane

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #255 on: March 15, 2015, 05:30:35 pm »
And I tell you that's impossible. Whenever you start a battle and you have an enemy elite you'll deal more damage with pulse than Assault, and with a missile frigate it will also happen. You can say Pulse is situational, that most of the times other weapons are better, but you can't switch Pulse with Assault.

If you prefer to think it like that, would you prefer having 2 Ryders with only Pulse or only Assault, orwould you prefer to have a Ryder with pulse AND a Ryder with Assault?

Well, the impossible happened. I guess it must be a bug.

That's somewhat of a nonsensical question. A lot of the time, assault's damage is only a little better and they both suck against pretty much everything that isn't lightly armored.

Also that:
The problem with BlackJacks pulse laser is that it costs 50 energy, not 40 like the sunriders. Not that the sunrider uses its pulse much, but the one weapon that the BJ lacks is kinetic cannon.. which is the one key weapon right now. Shes mostly on cleanup duty like the Phoenix, but without her evasion tank possibillity.

Below around 6 armour, assault ends up well ahead as you can easily reach 4 a turn with 120 energy, while pulse is still at just 2. Also, in 7.1a pulse is just 15 points more accuracy over assault.

Right now shes the Ryder I value the least, which is kinda sad.  :(

1- pulse - it doesn't, though. (I will give you that it has the ranged accuracy)
Captain difficulty, Black Jack, no upgrades:
Spoiler

vs

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2- comparative - No. You are. The game has already established that lasers are good enough to easily penetrate unshielded armor at whatever visible "laser speed" they travel at.

By firing at a specific spot from range, not sweeping over the hull "in the blink of an eye".

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3- location - I'm pretty sure the only weapon capable of causing a big enough hole are missiles, which are finite in use. You can't keep firing them, and you have limited (unarmored) things to target from outside the ship.
And that stops you from firing into that hole from the outside with any number of other weapons, how?

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4- It sounds like you're missing the fundamental function of the weapon- i.e. penetrating key locations on the enemy vessel, positing bombs inside, and using the ryder's range relative to the ship, as well as maneuverability, to do it. The way you describe it is more akin to a slightly better missile- A Bunker Buster, if you will- losing the accuracy for some range.
So the ryder carrying this weapon on top of its own mass as well as protecting its occupant, would be more maneuverable than if this weapon was instead a missile that only had to worry about its own mass alone?

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(I won't even address the AA guns at this point- I've killed that point so hard that it's undead by now)
Because you're still thinking as if AA guns are slow, ponderous turrets (instead of being more like these)... And forgetting that in open space, the enemy can see you coming the moment you start accelerating towards them. Do you really think AA turrets like these takes longer to pivot 180 degrees than it takes a rider to cross hundreds of Ks?

1. pulse - read my posts for an appropriate response.

2. comparative - You don't have a point there. The amount of time that those lasers take up while impacting the hull from range would be roughly the same as the amount of time the laser sword spends on any given location on it's path along the sweep. (this is assuming that the silly speed lasers travel at in battles is really just slowed down for effect, and it's really just like canon story sequences instead with the laser moving in a flash)

3. location - read "                                               ".

4. Pile Driver - Yeah, it would. You know that missiles aren't all that maneuverable, even in this game. (otherwise, they could go around flak screens)

5. AA guns - Read "                                               ".

Absolutely nothing that's been said is a valid reason why ryders would be incapable of swinging their melee weapons against non-ryder targets.

--
Now, I need to stop for tonight. Sleep beckons, and I am literally holding back vomit from the stress of talking with some of you. However much I might tolerate it, I'm not a fan of the near constant spew of partially veiled insults.

Offline mikebrand83

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #256 on: March 15, 2015, 10:52:44 am »
2. comparative - You don't have a point there. The amount of time that those lasers take up while impacting the hull from range would be roughly the same as the amount of time the laser sword spends on any given location on it's path along the sweep. (this is assuming that the silly speed lasers travel at in battles is really just slowed down for effect, and it's really just like canon story sequences instead with the laser moving in a flash)
The amount of energy that can be applied to any particular portion of armour in a sweeping attack is directly proportional to how long that "laser sword" is in contact with any particular portion of the ship. If we interpret your "before they could even blink" as 1 second, that means that 1 second worth of energy output was spread across entire length of the ship. Whereas if it was simply a laser beam shot at a single spot for that same 1 second, all of that energy would be concentrated into that single spot.

Assuming a beam focus width of 10cm, against a ship with a length of 500m, your "laser sword" achieve approximately just 1/5000 the penetration of simply shooting the laser at a single spot.

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4. Pile Driver - Yeah, it would. You know that missiles aren't all that maneuverable, even in this game. (otherwise, they could go around flak screens)
Missiles that has to approach a single specific, predictable point in space to be effective (their target), something ryders don't have to do under normal circumstances... At least, until they try to close into to use melee attacks, rather than engaging at range.

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Now, I need to stop for tonight. Sleep beckons, and I am literally holding back vomit from the stress of talking with some of you. However much I might tolerate it, I'm not a fan of the near constant spew of partially veiled insults.
Yeah. Let's just say that a bit rich coming from you, given the tone of virtually every single one of your posts in this topic.
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Offline The Nothing

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #257 on: March 15, 2015, 11:36:51 am »
Please everyone, calm down !

Let's just all be friend within the light of the Greater Good  =3

Spoiler


Offline mikebrand83

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #258 on: March 15, 2015, 11:56:13 am »
Please everyone, calm down !

Let's just all be friend within the light of the Greater Good  =3

Spoiler
I raise you one Hero of the Imperium:
Spoiler
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Offline Shirley

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #259 on: March 15, 2015, 05:53:03 pm »
-Looks at the number of replies since yesterday-

....

-skims them, enjoys a little of it-

...

Yeah, I'm done with this thread.

Nothing we bring up will change the gameplay, IMO, we've discussed this to death and there really isn't anything further to discuss, my points still stand on not making Icari OP (aside from Icari, all the Ryders, this is an independent project, and how often do they allow such things as,

"What if it hit the engines/some vital areas"

What is this? Star Wars Battlefront 2? The user interface doesn't work like that here, and programming such would take a lot of time for no real purpose. Make a mod if you want it so badly, or just increase the stats manually if you don't like a Ryder being completely useless after all enemy Ryders are gone, because it's main job is to deal with the grunts, and there are plenty on the field for that.

If I remember correctly, this thread started before Kryska was thrown onto the field with her heavy cannons, so there really isn't much to complain about anymore since you now have a Ryder that punches holes in ships. If this is after, oh well, great, Icari is useless. That's what happens when someone gets what they need/want out of you, your thrown to the side and out of their life until they need ya again. That's how a lot of jobs work.

excuse my bluntness but this is a rare morning when I hate everything in this universe.
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!! Because you all suck and need to lighten up  Me In a Nutshell
KomiTsuku [Sep 22, 2015, 03:43:44 PM]:But tentacle monsters are our friends. BITE ME UNIVERSE [Oct 16, 2016, 09:21:04 pm]:   because one type of forbidden love just isn't enough Afro-Kun [Facebook Nov 21, 2015, 22:40:01 PM]: "I WAS JUST HANDED TEA AND THEN; Friend: "I put the tea in "NTR"!" FRIEND PLS"

Offline SeleneDrakane

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #260 on: March 15, 2015, 08:51:22 pm »
2. comparative - You don't have a point there. The amount of time that those lasers take up while impacting the hull from range would be roughly the same as the amount of time the laser sword spends on any given location on it's path along the sweep. (this is assuming that the silly speed lasers travel at in battles is really just slowed down for effect, and it's really just like canon story sequences instead with the laser moving in a flash)
The amount of energy that can be applied to any particular portion of armour in a sweeping attack is directly proportional to how long that "laser sword" is in contact with any particular portion of the ship. If we interpret your "before they could even blink" as 1 second, that means that 1 second worth of energy output was spread across entire length of the ship. Whereas if it was simply a laser beam shot at a single spot for that same 1 second, all of that energy would be concentrated into that single spot.

Assuming a beam focus width of 10cm, against a ship with a length of 500m, your "laser sword" achieve approximately just 1/5000 the penetration of simply shooting the laser at a single spot.

Quote
4. Pile Driver - Yeah, it would. You know that missiles aren't all that maneuverable, even in this game. (otherwise, they could go around flak screens)
Missiles that has to approach a single specific, predictable point in space to be effective (their target), something ryders don't have to do under normal circumstances... At least, until they try to close into to use melee attacks, rather than engaging at range.

Quote
Now, I need to stop for tonight. Sleep beckons, and I am literally holding back vomit from the stress of talking with some of you. However much I might tolerate it, I'm not a fan of the near constant spew of partially veiled insults.
Yeah. Let's just say that a bit rich coming from you, given the tone of virtually every single one of your posts in this topic.

1. Comparative - please, go back and read what I've posted, then. I am unsure of how I could be more clear than I already have been.

2. Pile Driver - I don't see your point. That doesn't change the fact that Ryders would be more maneuverable than missiles.

3. No, it's not. If you've been reading tone from me, it has been one of two things, based on the post:
      (1) - Your prejudice coloring your perception of my words.
      (2) - Reaction to insults coming from either you, or others, in the thread.

-Looks at the number of replies since yesterday-

....

-skims them, enjoys a little of it-

...

Yeah, I'm done with this thread.

Nothing we bring up will change the gameplay, IMO, we've discussed this to death and there really isn't anything further to discuss, my points still stand on not making Icari OP (aside from Icari, all the Ryders, this is an independent project, and how often do they allow such things as,

"What if it hit the engines/some vital areas"

What is this? Star Wars Battlefront 2? The user interface doesn't work like that here, and programming such would take a lot of time for no real purpose. Make a mod if you want it so badly, or just increase the stats manually if you don't like a Ryder being completely useless after all enemy Ryders are gone, because it's main job is to deal with the grunts, and there are plenty on the field for that.

If I remember correctly, this thread started before Kryska was thrown onto the field with her heavy cannons, so there really isn't much to complain about anymore since you now have a Ryder that punches holes in ships. If this is after, oh well, great, Icari is useless. That's what happens when someone gets what they need/want out of you, your thrown to the side and out of their life until they need ya again. That's how a lot of jobs work.

excuse my bluntness but this is a rare morning when I hate everything in this universe.

Your point about not making Icari OP doesn't stand.
Multiple game balancing suggestions have already been included in the thread thus far.
(my own was to reduce her melee base damage against non-ryders to about 1/2 or 1/3 of normal- maybe more if she still does too much damage. Basically, she would deal somewhere between 80-180 damage to your average ship, I think *doesn't double-check numbers*)

Judging by how blindingly fast Icari gets "killed" in your average battle, it should be fine.
Besides, the game is already frustratingly hard on "normal" difficulty (nearly got a game over during the tutorial battle the first time I played). Giving the player more options can only be a good thing.

Offline SeleneDrakane

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #261 on: March 15, 2015, 08:52:44 pm »
Please everyone, calm down !

Let's just all be friend within the light of the Greater Good  =3

Spoiler

I can't see your image for some reason.

Online Elvis Strunk

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #262 on: March 15, 2015, 08:55:35 pm »
Reuploaded that image to a different site. Can you see it now?

Offline SeleneDrakane

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #263 on: March 15, 2015, 09:16:18 pm »
Reuploaded that image to a different site. Can you see it now?

Elvis, your magic has enabled the blessed miracle of seeing upon my eyeballs when it comes to relatively humorous works of meme art in spoiler tags.

Offline mikebrand83

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #264 on: March 15, 2015, 09:32:28 pm »
3. No, it's not. If you've been reading tone from me, it has been one of two things, based on the post:
      (1) - Your prejudice coloring your perception of my words.
      (2) - Reaction to insults coming from either you, or others, in the thread.
Again, that's rich coming from the same person whose first post in the topic was effectively "I can't be f-ed reading anything anyone else previously discussed, but here's my opinion", claims canon is on your side when it's blatantly obvious you're clearly speaking from an inferior position of knowledge about the lore, ignore advise to read earlier posts in the thread which already cover most of the points you bring up, and still repeatedly dismiss others' points without ever really addressing them.

Yeah, I'm done with this thread too.
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Offline SeleneDrakane

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #265 on: March 17, 2015, 01:51:25 am »
*home internet "possibly" dead*

Again, that's rich coming from the same person whose first post in the topic was effectively "I can't be f-ed reading anything anyone else previously discussed, but here's my opinion", claims canon is on your side when it's blatantly obvious you're clearly speaking from an inferior position of knowledge about the lore, ignore advise to read earlier posts in the thread which already cover most of the points you bring up, and still repeatedly dismiss others' points without ever really addressing them.

Yeah, I'm done with this thread too.

So, it's strong prejudice from you, then. I see. I thought it might be, but I wasn't sure. Still, I suppose that I can take it when it is essentially just your description of what you have been doing. Actually, that's wrong. you've been "half-reading", "misunderstanding", or "Cherry-Picking", for the most part. I suppose that isn't too strange.

You've said that already. To be fair, that was a long time ago.

Offline Shirley

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #266 on: March 17, 2015, 05:37:19 pm »
You've said that already. To be fair, that was a long time ago.

Okay, now, I gotta say, when someone says this statement to me, and they are history nuts/people who enjoy history (I have friends who love Norris mythology, Greek mythology, and...idk whatever else mythology there is), I gotta say that they are hypocrites.

I have a friend who constantly bags on Christianity for "The Crusades", when it was a bunch of misguided people doing what they believed was right. Sure, it's bad, but you don't hate a religion for that, or a book that's ~2k years old and translated across 10 different languages and possibly lost SOME of it's credit due to translations.

Do I hate on Germany, every person who has lived there, or any person with a heritage from Germany just for invading MY heritage country 2 times? Do I hate on every person from here until the end of time for what a country did in it's past? No. Why? Because that doesn't affect you for life.

Honestly, why trust your history books then? Why trust any recorded history before videos and pictures? Most of history OUTSIDE our native countries means that there was SOMEONE who found it, and translated it to the best of their knowledge. The older the document and the earlier it was found the more likely that there are errors in it's translation.

Continuing (because I know someone is going to say "Well, there are people who are alive today how have lived through WWII"), why believe anything anyone ever tells you? What makes you think you actually exist? How can you prove others exist? There is no physical way to prove that anyone else right now currently exists, because you weren't there in the past to witness everything you have been told, and you can't prove that the people who say they have lived through something have lived through it.

Bottom line, don't say something was a long time ago. You can see already that it's been recorded and written down, yet you are going to blow it off as "it was a long time ago". You see, if you can't be bothered to read anything previously, then I see you as one of the people on the street who knows nothing about George Washington other than him being on the $1 bill.

Yes, I feel strongly about certain subjects, and for once, I am sharing them with the world.

If I misread your post, then this is just a philosophical rant for everyone to stop and think about things for once.
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!! Because you all suck and need to lighten up  Me In a Nutshell
KomiTsuku [Sep 22, 2015, 03:43:44 PM]:But tentacle monsters are our friends. BITE ME UNIVERSE [Oct 16, 2016, 09:21:04 pm]:   because one type of forbidden love just isn't enough Afro-Kun [Facebook Nov 21, 2015, 22:40:01 PM]: "I WAS JUST HANDED TEA AND THEN; Friend: "I put the tea in "NTR"!" FRIEND PLS"

Offline Histidine

Re: Allowing melee attack to target non-ryders
« Reply #267 on: March 18, 2015, 07:43:49 pm »
Okay, I didn't want to say anything before, but:

I am literally holding back vomit from the stress of talking with some of you. However much I might tolerate it, I'm not a fan of the near constant spew of partially veiled insults.
Please quote the exact post(s) where any such thing happened, because I'm not seeing it.

Discussion of who here is "half-reading" or "misunderstanding" the other party (or for that matter, the irony illustrated in the text I've quoted here) can be left for after we've cleared that up.