Author Topic: some ideas to discuss  (Read 18962 times)

Offline Arnx

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2014, 09:44:40 am »
Sorry for my english). Some changes really wanted.
1. Some color mark for system with side and main mission on galactic map.
2. In some battle where are too many enemies their turn is too long(all units x2 attacks), may be possible count some block attack for one unit and show one animation for all attacks? May be not one enemy pictures, but many (like reflections), turn that option on/off optionallity.
3. Need rebalance or make more clear upgrade system. It is near impossible upgrade a least one system to max, but when you see way to level 10 upgrade you think that you will have chance upgrade(shield 10 ..aha). Money really too shot. and you need upgrade all units not one...
3.2  May be for mission give some  money, not only for battle kills.
4. It is funny but I change difficult level from captain to casual in mission with diplomat escort...and not set it back, even at casual so many truble... For example in diplomat mission - on captain I can not move forward because too many damage incoming, until biggest part of drones not killed, but right at that moment extra fleet already come, transport to run - 5-6 turns, may be it can go alone, not check, but if i go with it sunrider will die too quickly. Using command like guards - not solve, vanguard canon - too expansive.. you have near 8000 command point after battle.. and you must go to plus with cp, it is 2 uses of canon...
5. enemy support drones - too over power, 2 of them  can turn off all flac defence... with such numbers of rocket attack as now - it is too deadly.
6. when energy -50% then if I use restore I have 1 turn unit less power, if not - two... situation then I have all unin half powered was not unique. Support placed too far for sniper , short warp only help and not always. And sniper at half power unusefull, repair - not availible... phenix coming in close combat have more then enouth damage on next turn even on casual level.
P/S but game at all is fantastic fairytale - very beautiful, emotional.

Offline Lord Gorchnik

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2014, 10:59:52 pm »
Sorry for my english). Some changes really wanted.
1. Some color mark for system with side and main mission on galactic map.
2. In some battle where are too many enemies their turn is too long(all units x2 attacks), may be possible count some block attack for one unit and show one animation for all attacks? May be not one enemy pictures, but many (like reflections), turn that option on/off optionallity.
3. Need rebalance or make more clear upgrade system. It is near impossible upgrade a least one system to max, but when you see way to level 10 upgrade you think that you will have chance upgrade(shield 10 ..aha). Money really too shot. and you need upgrade all units not one...
3.2  May be for mission give some  money, not only for battle kills.
4. It is funny but I change difficult level from captain to casual in mission with diplomat escort...and not set it back, even at casual so many truble... For example in diplomat mission - on captain I can not move forward because too many damage incoming, until biggest part of drones not killed, but right at that moment extra fleet already come, transport to run - 5-6 turns, may be it can go alone, not check, but if i go with it sunrider will die too quickly. Using command like guards - not solve, vanguard canon - too expansive.. you have near 8000 command point after battle.. and you must go to plus with cp, it is 2 uses of canon...
5. enemy support drones - too over power, 2 of them  can turn off all flac defence... with such numbers of rocket attack as now - it is too deadly.
6. when energy -50% then if I use restore I have 1 turn unit less power, if not - two... situation then I have all unin half powered was not unique. Support placed too far for sniper , short warp only help and not always. And sniper at half power unusefull, repair - not availible... phenix coming in close combat have more then enouth damage on next turn even on casual level.
P/S but game at all is fantastic fairytale - very beautiful, emotional.

A great first post? On my Sunrider board? Blasphemy!

Offline Marx-93

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2014, 11:34:20 pm »
Good rant about lasers

Actually, I disagree with you here Draath (and Rhi). Lasers were never intended to be the main fighting weapon, they were always intended to be support weapons, and right now I think that their function is more or less well done. Now, i understand the problems, and while I would appreciate if the A.I. could be intelligent enough to separate its forces into an "attacking" group (which go hit you with kinetics) and a "support" group (which will be the one standing off), but that sincerely looks fairly complicated for Sunrider. Also, the situation you present will be making only laser a possibility, which would be changing the problem for another (and worse balance wise, since after 10 missions in a way you suddenly say "LOL Nope!" to the player). What I think we should be searching for is a way to make lasers more relevant, but not a way to use lasers instead of kinetics. Also, short range warp is 750 CP. Wasting 1500 CP to get 2 kinetic shot is fairly stupid in most situations (only PACT Support deserve it, and even then only when you have no missiles), so I think restricting it would be stupid (and you don't just short range jump the Sunrider between 2 Assault Carriers and 3 Cruisers...).

Now, why do lasers fail at their support action? I think that the problem is 2: that actually there's a moment when they work, and that the units that have both lasers and kinetics are too common. Still, I have used the Alliance Cruisers lasers a few times, and the Sunrider is pretty much a lost cause with kinetics accuracy upgradeable (they still work as a situational weapon though). The last problem is just due to brutal pace of fights, were you are fighting almost non-stop against reinforcements, tens of capital ships, etc. A normal mission where you have to slowly advance towards the enemy, and instead of Assault Carriers and Battleships you are fighting against a big number of long range enemies, like missile frigates, Bomber and Cruisers would be nice. But that's more situational and a little of Draath and Rhi said.

Moment when the lasers work? The beginning and, specially, when you first have access to the Union frigates. Lasers are mainly support weapons that would hunt the enemy reinforcements, or the units that are out of formation. For mission 13,14 and 15 lasers become wonderful for hurting the enemy rear while your kinetics destroy their front. Even in Ongess they are very useful at the beginning. The most shield the enemy has is 60, which is just what 4 frigates can shut down in a turn. Since disable now also shuts down the shield, you can do things like disable the ship and use the frigates to destroy all of PACT's shield cover at mission 16 (except the Supports, but more on that later). Now, why does that don't work? That's due to the new units, specially the Elites eliminating all need of PACT Bomber and missile frigates (seriously, they practically disappear). This is changed by a unit with lots of EV, and worse, little armour but lots of HP, thus being basically the lasers antithesis. Change every time you meet an Elite by a missile frigate or a bomber, and you'll realize how useful laser really was against them (specially now that you have 2 shoots Black Jack and 4 frigates!). Support is just as bad, being practicality impossible to hit unless you go at his side, even the Seraphim has problem sometimes.The new Elites and Support basically makes laser bad, because the support element laser was supposed to be used against are now almost immune to it. We are now forced to use laser against capital ships if we want to be efficient, and that wasn't the way laser was designed.

Ways to change that? New enemies. A PACT sniper would be a good way, but a "super-Bomber" would also work. A Ryder with 30(!) of Armour, 60 FK and 0 (or -10)EV, but with only 375 HP. Also always starting on the rear and moving very little, having tons of missiles with good accuracy, and a brutal Assault to make the Phoenix wary to go near it (aside from being basically in the rear). The Assault Carrier being shieldless is also good, but with the lower armour but big HP that basically makes it a damage sponge.

Those are my two cents.

OH and

I like adding perk choices though, but I'm not sure we want to be adding things like that at this stage of the game. I do really like making the Phoenix cheaper to resurrect, though :D
I think I'll whine about CP costs some more to Sam.

About CP, how about the game remember when there's a downed unit and penalizes your CP for it (counting it even if you resurrect it later, so if you resurrect the Phoenix 4 times you get 4 times the penalty)? A good commander isn't supposed to use units simply as cannon fodder right? This way we'll also make resurrection more expensive without changing it's use on the battlefield, and penalize captains who use units as shields. How about making the girls lose affection points every time they die? This way I'm pretty sure they would think 2 times before using them like that!

Also:

Well, then something must be wrong with my game:

Seraphim

Sola, have I done something to you?
Like you just said, you continued from 6.x and there have been many changes to R&D since then.  I think you have to use the debug reset for the new R&D to take effect.
truth ^ 
(wow, somebody who's save actually still worked :o )

Thanks! Could changes like this be said every time there's a new version? Since I've only used the debug option a pair of times I may be updating my units with 5.0 upgrades that now are changed.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

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Offline Histidine

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2014, 05:09:46 am »
Hmm, Black Jack's melee attack would have quite a bit more power and flexibility if its energy cost was 40 (same as Phoenix) instead of the current 50.
  • at 100 energy, can double slice after moving 1 tile (from 0)
  • at 120 energy, can triple slice if not moving (instead of just double)
  • can move one extra tile while still being able to attack 1-2 times at 100 or 120 energy

Offline Vaendryl

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2014, 10:23:47 am »
Hmm, Black Jack's melee attack would have quite a bit more power and flexibility if its energy cost was 40 (same as Phoenix) instead of the current 50.
  • at 100 energy, can double slice after moving 1 tile (from 0)
  • at 120 energy, can triple slice if not moving (instead of just double)
  • can move one extra tile while still being able to attack 1-2 times at 100 or 120 energy

sounds like people should be buying some melee cost reduction upgrades for the BJ then :)
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Offline Zophor

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2014, 12:37:02 pm »
Seraphim - I think the Sera is right where it needs to be. It's your sniper unit who's role is to take care of those out of the way annoying units like Supports or rocket Ryders. Which she does exceedingly well.

Black Jack - the BJ is the quintessential red mage Ryder. Capable of doing almost everything but master at none. If anything I'd add a smaller kinetic cannon to give her some punch against larger capital ships.

Phoenix - Ryder killer, nuff said. Does kinda make her usefullness drop when there're no Ryders about. I like the idea of getting her her backpack repaired if only to give her the lasers she had while wearing it.

Paladin - Complements the Sunrider well and with FF there're few capital ships that can weather shots from both.

Liberty/Bianca - both're support Ryders and with 120 En they can pull off most of their moves with ease. If I had to ask for something new, it'd be for one of them to get that En reduction move that the Pact supports have.
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Offline Marx-93

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2014, 02:04:14 pm »
So, finally used the debug option and, Holy Crackers! The Seraphim has changed from a cannon with legs to a super-cannon with legs! Now I get why very few people complain about supports, I mean, with the new buff you can take them out with a hit and we don't have the accuracy problem of last beta.

So, Vaen, Graph, any other change on the units since 6.0- nah, 5.0? The only other change I noticed was when lasers got buffed and kinetics nerfed.  Thanks
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

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Offline Vaendryl

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2014, 04:09:07 pm »
So, finally used the debug option and, Holy Crackers! The Seraphim has changed from a cannon with legs to a super-cannon with legs! Now I get why very few people complain about supports, I mean, with the new buff you can take them out with a hit and we don't have the accuracy problem of last beta.

So, Vaen, Graph, any other change on the units since 6.0- nah, 5.0? The only other change I noticed was when lasers got buffed and kinetics nerfed.  Thanks
I think armor got nerfed allround except for sunrider ans phoenix' HP got more expensive.

also, the change to the Serpahim has been documented in the change log... it's just that I haven't posted the change log on the forum this time because lazy. it's in the games folder as a readme.md though and it's on github if you scroll down.
nope, I could have sworn I put it in but it's not there :o
oops, sorry.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 04:11:03 pm by Vaendryl »
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Offline AkioKlaus

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2014, 05:46:30 pm »
wish armor would reduce kinetic dmg more... aka more multiplier

but then assault wont do shit :D

we got like assault rifle and tank gun but no cannon type of between. Paladin should have this :D (since her missiles are already half amount deals twice setting.)
Currently- No good college game design student, too much anime in life
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Offline Rhi

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2014, 03:10:50 am »
wish armor would reduce kinetic dmg more... aka more multiplier

but then assault wont do shit :D

Actually percentile reduction of damage by armor would be a boost to assaults, if anything. Right now everything with 5-6+ armor just laughs at assault, that includes all of the later ryders.  Makes pulses feel somewhat useful, actually.

On a side-note, wish Phoenix actually had those pulses instead of assault, since she has no anti-ship capabilities whatsoever, but more importantly - the range/damage of assaults is so low, that you're better going into melee anyway.

PS. Paladin's kinetics could be transformed into something like 4*120-135 or 8*60-75 to go with its cannon theme. Will also differentiate its kinetics from sunrider's - more damage vs soft targets, less vs hard targets.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 03:16:02 am by Rhi »

Offline Vaendryl

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2014, 08:26:08 pm »
armor used to have a percentage effect on top of a subtractive one. the former would help against heavy cannon fire.
Sam didn't like that idea and we went to double subtractive against kinetic.

I'd like to reiterate though that the topic of this thread isn't to discuss changes to the game that make things easier (or harder) but to discuss changes that allow for more viable choices as to how to spend money other than dumping it all on the sunrider, paladin and Seraphim and ignoring the rest.
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Offline Bionerd

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2014, 08:28:10 pm »
Some comments on what other people have said and some ideas.

BJ: Right now the idea with the black jack is to have a well rounded and highly versatile unit that isn't as good at any one thing as the others. This works great in early missions before things have gotten upgrades but it's just not worth putting money into something that isn't focused when it costs just as much to upgrade something that is. A good solution to get people to consider upgrading the blackguard would be to make all of it's upgrades cheaper at lower levels but more expensive at higher levels. Doing this would make it so that it's easier to have it be well rounded with some really upgrades, but hard for it to focus on any particular role. I'm not entirely sure where to balance this at, maybe something along the lines of having it's upgrades cost be 60% of the base cost for anything else, but 1.4^n instead of 1.3^n and 2.25^n instead of 2^n for the exponential growth rates on those costs.

Sunrider: It sounds like a lot of people just focus on it's kinetic weapons and ignore it's lasers right now. But it looks like it's designed to be another well rounded unit like the BJ, only heavier and slower. So maybe making it's weapon systems plateau more quickly like I suggested for the BJ would be appropriate and would get people to consider upgrading both weapons as an options.

Support units (Liberty and Bianca): Having the ability to upgrade their support abilities would be a nice addition. Have upgrades like there are for weapons (cost, range instead of accuracy, power of the effect (for aim and power up)) and maybe have each ability be upgraded separately.

Bianca and the Paladin: This isn't really a balance issue and more of a thematic one although it might help with giving people some more viable options for upgrading. Having a shotgun on a support unit that sits in the back seems kind of weird, especially when the tanky unit which seems like it's focused on heavy weapon fire has a machine gun. Since there are already a lot of units with machine guns perhaps give the bianca a mid range kinetic rifle (longer range than the kinetic cannon's but shorter than the seraphim's sniper rifle and with a lot less damage than either (have it cost around 40-50en)) and give the paladin the shotgun instead. That said the paladin already has a heavy damage weapon and needs a multiple shot weapon, so make the shotgun multiple shot (fires once but it sends out a spread of light projectiles... like a shotgun) and have it have higher base damage than the assault rifles but a faster accuracy decay (also like a shotgun). Maybe something like keeping it at 30En per use and have it do 10 shots at 25 damage but have the accuracy fall off at 1.5 or 2 times the normal speed so you really only want to use it against enemies within a few spaces of the paladin (thereby emphasizing the advantages and disadvantages of kinetic weapons verses laser weapons - especially since the paladin is slow and wouldn't be able to easily get in range with it's shotgun).


Lasers: I've actually used them a lot more than I aught to have (since they become rather weak in the later game) but the pulse laser is great at softening up lightly armored targets so that you can finish them off with assault fire. I actually get a ton of millage out of the phoenix and BJ from this - that said there just aren't enough lightly armored enemies which get in range of kinetic weapons in the latter part of the game (well, at least not in comparison to the number of cruisers, carriers - which , etc). What usually happens is that I take out all of the lightly armored enemies within the first two turns and then have 3 fairly useless units (phoenix, BJ and sunrider with laser upgrades) since there are no targets for them.
  Also Laser cannons seem a little weak in comparison to every other weapon including the pulse lasers. They cost the same amount as kinetic cannons but deal half as much damage (although at longer range), they have the same damage potential as assault but cost over twice as much and their range isn't that much better the pulse lasers and they aren't that much better for dealing with light armor than the pulse laser. Admittedly I think they are intended to deal with medium armor units at mid range but unless the thing has at least 20armor left I usually find 2 shots with the pulse laser to be a more reliable method to do this than 1 shot with the laser cannon (and with a few upgrades (I think 5) those basically cost the same (60en vs 59en)). Maybe boost it's base damage from 200 to 250. Yes, that is starting to put it close to the seraphim's weapon, but the seraphim has much better accuracy and it's weapon is kinetic which is a major advantage on high accuracy single shot weapons (also it has awakening and it's weapon upgrades faster). I think this change would be worth play testing and I don't think it would actually make the game any easier, just make lasers a little more viable.

Offline Vaendryl

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2014, 10:11:25 pm »
lasers are a bit cheaper to upgrade than kinetics are and maybe I'll look into buffing this a bit more for lasers. this will also make the BJ a bit more powerful with a few upgrades. enemy shielding is annoying though shutoff and disable removes it. also, getting all 4 frigates gives you 8 uses of shield jam per turn, which you can also abuse to extend the duration of shutoff indefinitely (a bit of a trick, but it's there).

in addition, I think I'll add a way to improve the BJ's movement rate and also make the BJ's melee scale a bit better so you can make it compete with the phoenix a little bit - if you're willing to invest to make that happen.

I don't think I'll make support abilities upgradable through the R&D screen. it makes things messy and the code back-end isn't really built for it. I am thinking of adding items to the store you can buy that will improve them, but I'm not decided on the specifics.

I'm pretty sure we're not going to switch around weapons. it'll mess with existing animations and mech designs and Sam is going to throw a fit if I'd even suggest it :)
changing how the Bianca's shotgun works in terms of gameplay though is something I'd think is interesting. fairly high shot count and damage/shot - but extra accuracy decay. maybe double. higher base stats automatically make upgrades more viable too, as they're percentage based.
apart from that, a store item that makes the gravity gun cheaper will do much for the Bianca too, though it's going to be expensive. most support upgrades should be, I think.

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Offline AkioKlaus

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2014, 10:17:01 pm »
random crap but because i used to play gunz...

i wonder how useful would bianca be if her shotgun reduce enemy armor?

(gunz has armor like normal fps so shotgun is best way to get rid of enemy's armor.
tho in the game armor exist to prevent shotgun from being op on soft skin and thats why headshot (bypass armor) and rifles (% of dmg goes to hp instead) were also popular.)
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Offline Vaendryl

Re: some ideas to discuss
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2014, 10:35:46 pm »
on the one hand I kind of like adding something like a 'critical hit' mechanic. or adding a 'barely dodge receiving only half damage' mechanic... but on the other hand that just adds more randomness to an already luck based game.  I need to choose between the ability for people to strategize and predict the next turn between 'hey, this is nifty'.
I think I'll keep it simple and predictable (and boring) for now :(
game design isn't always doing what you think is fun ;_;
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