Author Topic: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe  (Read 5984 times)

Offline Autohummer

A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« on: December 23, 2014, 05:02:14 pm »
Just to satisfy my curiosity, I would like to ask some questions regarding the Sunrider universe. If they are unanswerable for whatever reason, just tell me so.

1) How much does 1 credit worth relative to the galaxy's own living costs? How much would it cost me to buy some of Chigara's pastries and/or to have my badly battered asteroid tug repaired? I assume the credit is a universal (electronic) currency?

2) Has intra-atmospheric combat been rendered obsolete (except infantry/boarding action) by the advent of orbital bombardment? Do the factions deploy intra-atmospheric combat vehicles?

3) How big in terms of number of star systems/diameter is the Sunrider Galaxy?

4) Does Cera/any other place have its own national/place-al dish/drink?

5) Compared to the early 21st century (i.e. now) how much have the standard/quality of life changed to the common, non-spacefaring people?

Offline Marx-93

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 10:42:08 pm »
I think I can more or less answer two of them based on what we know and what samu-kun has said until now. for the rest you'll have to pray that he is in a good mood.

2) Has intra-atmospheric combat been rendered obsolete (except infantry/boarding action) by the advent of orbital bombardment? Do the factions deploy intra-atmospheric combat vehicles?

3) How big in terms of number of star systems/diameter is the Sunrider Galaxy?

Intra-atmospheric combat has not been rendered wholly obsolete in the sense that infantry and small arms can still fight. This can only resist however against small invasions in which the biggest ship is a cruiser. Full invasions tend to have mass destruction weapons like the Vanguard Cannon or the Legion's cannon (for reference, the Vanguard Cannon can destroy a pair of city blocks, which is still enough to completely break any kind of surface based defence), and even then that's relatively tame. The New Empire had superweapons able to glass an entire planet, and it did so regularly during the PACT revolution. Ryders also are also unable to fight in any kind of gravity high enough to sustain life (they collapse on themselves), so their only possibility of defence is making a superfortress, hope to shoot down all rocket and missiles and hope there is not a Legion-like cannon on orbit.

The Sunrider Galaxy it's basically the milky way (around 100.000 light years of diameter, and no more than 2000 light years of thickness). If not, then it's similar enough it doesn't matter. While there are tons of stars, making an approximate calculation the number of habited systems(even if only by a small group, like Far port and Tydaria)  is between 300 and 500. Maybe a thousand, but it would be a big stretch given what we've seen. The number of stars and planets is a  lot bigger than that, but most are simply forgotten due to low class and resources.

5) Compared to the early 21st century (i.e. now) how much have the standard/quality of life changed to the common, non-spacefaring people?

We know that expectancy of life has duplicated, and that everyone seems a lot younger (greatly improved medical science). Despite this, genetic alterations, cyborg enhancements and cloning seem to banned barring very special cases. There's faster than light communication, but aside from that everything seems almost like 21st century but with holograms and lasers. Even materials doesn't seem to have improved that much (except maybe for the famed "holowear" Kayto desires so much).
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

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Offline robertness

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2014, 08:52:51 am »
4) Does Cera/any other place have its own national/place-al dish/drink?

There is a hint that Ryuvia has a unique cooking style, but we haven't been given a clue as to what it is. The shopping district Kayto and Ava pass on their way to school has a restaurant called the "Prince of Ryuvia" with a sign advertising "Authentic Ryuvian Cuisine."

I had a notion that in Sunrider Academy The Prince of Ryuvia is a potential date location. With décor inspired by the baroque grandeur of the Star Palace and exotic (to Cerans) food, it is a romantic place for making a good impression on that certain someone. Unfortunately for Kayto, it's owned by Jaylor Oakrun, Asaga's dad. If Kayto suggests taking Asaga to Prince of Ryuvia, he suffers an immediate loss of affection. The other girls would be interested in going to The Prince, but the romantic meal would be interrupted by Jaylor asking how his "little princess" is doing in school. This is a minefield that Kayto is hard pressed to navigate successfully: Praise Asaga too much, and the girl he's on a date with will start to wonder why he didn't invite Asaga if he likes her so much. Don't praise her enough, and the girl gets the impression that Kayto is being mean to the old man.

Offline Pal

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2014, 09:17:11 am »
I picture this as an italian joint. >_>

Heinrike [Nov 10, 2016, 11:00:11 am]: I'm bored too, but otherwise bored  Elvis Strunk [Dec 14, 2015, 01:43:59 AM]: Would make it easier to keep track of all the characters, at least. "They're all dead."
Eonymia [Dec 15, 2016, 10:14:17 pm]: Losers don't win, do drugs Arraxis [Feb 18, 2017, 03:12:47 am]: Slither me timbers

Offline Vaendryl

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 06:19:46 pm »
Only Sam can give you a final answer, but I can tell you what I think.

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1) How much does 1 credit worth relative to the galaxy's own living costs? How much would it cost me to buy some of Chigara's pastries and/or to have my badly battered asteroid tug repaired? I assume the credit is a universal (electronic) currency?
300 generic space dollars in Sunrider are definitely not the same as 300 credits in Academy - the scale between the 2 games is quite different. you can probably imagine about 4 to 6 extra implied digits after all the numbers in Sunrider. I believe due to overall high tech level most common things like food and simple clothing is very cheap, but high tech things quickly cost a lot - as would anything involving the service industry. A factory/bio-synthesizer made pastry is probably only a few credits but handmade ones would be a luxury and probably a few times more expensive. Even getting the raw ingredients would probably be unusual and therefore expensive. holo-clothing would probably also be expensive due to the high level of tech involved. probably a few hundred credits with actual clothing designs (outside a few basic default ones) downloadable for an extra price. kind of like DLC. I would imagine the average income for an adult on Cera to be a few thousand credits a month. this is probably a fortune on Ongess but not particularly much on most Alliance core worlds.
Despite what Sunrider might lead you to believe most people in the galaxy cannot afford space travel - let alone their own space tug. the costs involved would most likely be quite impressive. operating and maintaining a giant assault carrier like the Sunrider itself would costs many millions of credits, but financial matters are greatly simplified for the sake of the player. operating and maintaining a space tug would probably be similar to a modern truck times 10. In other words, even in the Sunrider universe there are probably not that many freelancers with their own ships - they're nearly all owned by corporations or mercenary groups. (yes, Claude is very mysterious)

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2) Has intra-atmospheric combat been rendered obsolete (except infantry/boarding action) by the advent of orbital bombardment? Do the factions deploy intra-atmospheric combat vehicles?
there is still intra-planet combat. I'm sure not every world has a global government and planetary warfare is most likely still a thing, although fairly rare as any side with space superiority would win immediately by default. Ryders cannot fight properly on a planet - mostly due to how fuel-inefficent they are within an atmosphere, fighting against gravity. however, there's certainly plenty of conventional weaponry more suited to planetary combat. Any war is likely to be particularly devastating though, as the use of weapons of mass destruction is rather commonplace in this universe.

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3) How big in terms of number of star systems/diameter is the Sunrider Galaxy?
I believe it's the same as our milky way.

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4) Does Cera/any other place have its own national/place-al dish/drink?
absolutely. Every planet has its own very distinct culture and diet, influenced by the local climate and history. Each planet even keeps track of time all its own. If someone from Cera says they are '24 years old' then that will mean something completely different from if someone from any other planet says the same. There are galaxy wide standards but in day to day life those aren't very relevant. Planets are big and usually quite self-sufficient. Trade and cultural exchange between planets is more common in Alliance and PACT space but to cerans it usually matters little.

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5) Compared to the early 21st century (i.e. now) how much have the standard/quality of life changed to the common, non-spacefaring people?
There is massive disparity between the peoples in the galaxy in terms of how well off they are.
EDIT: however, with very few exceptions (like Ongess) everyone has access to enough food and medicine regardless of income. As previously mentioned, life expectancy overall also has nearly doubled galaxy-wide.

some live lives not particularly better than middle age serfs, some are even worse off. Slavery, for example, is definitely a thing in this universe. Most people in Alliance core worlds however live far more luxuriously. I think the setting is closer to Star Wars than Star Trek, in this way. I'm pretty sure even Alliance worlds have a dark side to them where the ignored and forgotten live in slums, away from where their presence is inconvenient or embarrassing.
EDIT: Life in PACT space is typically worse overall compared to Alliance space, but they're fully mobilized for full scale war.
generally, there is no shortage of foodstuffs as yields are highly optimized. It's also not like everybody is living off of pills or nutrient paste.

The thing is that the galaxy as a whole has been on the decline for centuries. the glory days of old almost seem like fairy tails to most now. Most of the really advanced technology cannot be reproduced or maintained properly, and access to these resources would then obviously be highly restricted. To say that randomly meeting a couple of people who own their own super high performance ryders is unrealistic is a major understatement, but Shields just doesn't seem to be an ordinary guy :)

Now I just need Sam to tell me what I'm wrong about :D
EDIT: he did, and I added some extra info but most of it seems okay
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 08:24:52 pm by Vaendryl »
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Offline Autohummer

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 07:06:03 pm »
Thanks for answering. Though a tentative answer, it has already helped greatly with my Project Golden Crate. What it is exactly will be up to your interpretation until the reveal.

I personally suspected I needed to multiply a few megabucks per credit in standard Sunrider, though I was thinking only adding considerably less zeros in Academy. Also, I am happy(?) to know that real, non-synthesised ingredients are highly valuable-at least the "no chocolate in Sunrider galaxy" thing I made up in my work is somewhat plausible.

Offline GreatWyrmGold

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 04:24:01 pm »
Intra-atmospheric combat has not been rendered wholly obsolete in the sense that infantry and small arms can still fight. This can only resist however against small invasions in which the biggest ship is a cruiser. Full invasions tend to have mass destruction weapons like the Vanguard Cannon or the Legion's cannon (for reference, the Vanguard Cannon can destroy a pair of city blocks, which is still enough to completely break any kind of surface based defence), and even then that's relatively tame. The New Empire had superweapons able to glass an entire planet, and it did so regularly during the PACT revolution. Ryders also are also unable to fight in any kind of gravity high enough to sustain life (they collapse on themselves), so their only possibility of defence is making a superfortress, hope to shoot down all rocket and missiles and hope there is not a Legion-like cannon on orbit.
All of this is quite accurate...if the goal of the war is to kill everyone on the planet. While orbital support would be invaluable, in any realistic war the invaders would want to bring at least some ground troops in case the inhabitants of the planet don't unconditionally surrender. Siege is a theoretical option, but given that ships can jump into and out of low orbit while staying there only half an hour, it would take quite a few ships; being able to invade (even only as a threat to encourage surrender) would probably be more efficient.
Wait. This is a universe where wars are fought with giant robots, swords are considered at least halfway decent weapons for both said robots and humans, and there is only one non-woman who isn't evil. Realistic wars probably don't happen.

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The Sunrider Galaxy it's basically the milky way (around 100.000 light years of diameter, and no more than 2000 light years of thickness). If not, then it's similar enough it doesn't matter. While there are tons of stars, making an approximate calculation the number of habited systems(even if only by a small group, like Far port and Tydaria)  is between 300 and 500. Maybe a thousand, but it would be a big stretch given what we've seen. The number of stars and planets is a  lot bigger than that, but most are simply forgotten due to low class and resources.
Let's do the math here. The growth rate of human population is around 1-2% per year; that means that after two thousand years (the time since Sola went to sleep), the population could easily have grown half a billion times over. Barring a desire not to expand, an inability to, or major population crashes (none of which we are aware of), there would presumably be hundreds of millions as many inhabited worlds in the meantime. It's entirely plausible that humanity inhabited every habitable planet in the galaxy. This is assuming, of course, that interstellar travel is relatively cheap, but given how problematic overpopulation is on modern Earth, it doesn't strike me as implausible that someone would think to commission a few dedicated colonist ships, whether a government, charity, or some kind of for-profit entity.

you can probably imagine about 4 to 6 extra implied digits after all the numbers in Sunrider.
Might I suggest adding an SI prefix to the $, in that case? Seems simple enough, and reminds you of the scale.

Offline Marx-93

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 06:20:37 pm »
Intra-atmospheric combat has not been rendered wholly obsolete in the sense that infantry and small arms can still fight. This can only resist however against small invasions in which the biggest ship is a cruiser. Full invasions tend to have mass destruction weapons like the Vanguard Cannon or the Legion's cannon (for reference, the Vanguard Cannon can destroy a pair of city blocks, which is still enough to completely break any kind of surface based defence), and even then that's relatively tame. The New Empire had superweapons able to glass an entire planet, and it did so regularly during the PACT revolution. Ryders also are also unable to fight in any kind of gravity high enough to sustain life (they collapse on themselves), so their only possibility of defence is making a superfortress, hope to shoot down all rocket and missiles and hope there is not a Legion-like cannon on orbit.
All of this is quite accurate...if the goal of the war is to kill everyone on the planet. While orbital support would be invaluable, in any realistic war the invaders would want to bring at least some ground troops in case the inhabitants of the planet don't unconditionally surrender. Siege is a theoretical option, but given that ships can jump into and out of low orbit while staying there only half an hour, it would take quite a few ships; being able to invade (even only as a threat to encourage surrender) would probably be more efficient.
Wait. This is a universe where wars are fought with giant robots, swords are considered at least halfway decent weapons for both said robots and humans, and there is only one non-woman who isn't evil. Realistic wars probably don't happen.

Yeah, they actually have some ground troops on site always. It's kinda a plot point on Far Port, were you are targeting the bigger command ships not only because of leadership (that's only three or four ships) but also because as the biggest they also have most of the troops and supplies needed for the ground invasion. What happens is that there's no need of much budget or advancement because orbital weapons are relatively accessible. This works againts invasions of Cruisers, were space for troops is very limited, but against bigger ships they simply blast your troops from orbit and then land their soldiers. Guerrilla resistance is possible, but the control of the planet is lost.

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The Sunrider Galaxy it's basically the milky way (around 100.000 light years of diameter, and no more than 2000 light years of thickness). If not, then it's similar enough it doesn't matter. While there are tons of stars, making an approximate calculation the number of habited systems(even if only by a small group, like Far port and Tydaria)  is between 300 and 500. Maybe a thousand, but it would be a big stretch given what we've seen. The number of stars and planets is a  lot bigger than that, but most are simply forgotten due to low class and resources.
Let's do the math here. The growth rate of human population is around 1-2% per year; that means that after two thousand years (the time since Sola went to sleep), the population could easily have grown half a billion times over. Barring a desire not to expand, an inability to, or major population crashes (none of which we are aware of), there would presumably be hundreds of millions as many inhabited worlds in the meantime. It's entirely plausible that humanity inhabited every habitable planet in the galaxy. This is assuming, of course, that interstellar travel is relatively cheap, but given how problematic overpopulation is on modern Earth, it doesn't strike me as implausible that someone would think to commission a few dedicated colonist ships, whether a government, charity, or some kind of for-profit entity.

You kinda forgot the part about a civil war that was so devastating that basically regressed all technology 10.000 years. In the beginning that's already kinda impossible unless you wipe out a major percentage of humanity. Worlds like far Port were full of people in the Ryuvian Empire, and are now almost completely uninhabited.
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline GreatWyrmGold

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 04:19:11 pm »
Yeah, they actually have some ground troops on site always. It's kinda a plot point on Far Port, were you are targeting the bigger command ships not only because of leadership (that's only three or four ships) but also because as the biggest they also have most of the troops and supplies needed for the ground invasion. What happens is that there's no need of much budget or advancement because orbital weapons are relatively accessible. This works againts invasions of Cruisers, were space for troops is very limited, but against bigger ships they simply blast your troops from orbit and then land their soldiers. Guerrilla resistance is possible, but the control of the planet is lost.
That's the same logic as saying that since the Air Force can just air strike enemy soldiers, the US doesn't need much of an Army. For brevity, let me just state that combined arms is always better than relying on one part and suggest you do some martial reading. ]url=http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/]Stardestroyer.net[/url] is a decent resource, especially since it's written with science fiction in mind.

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You kinda forgot the part about a civil war that was so devastating that basically regressed all technology 10.000 years. In the beginning that's already kinda impossible unless you wipe out a major percentage of humanity. Worlds like far Port were full of people in the Ryuvian Empire, and are now almost completely uninhabited.
Even if humanity was reduced to a single world, that still means that humanity could have easily spread to hundreds of millions of worlds.

Offline Marx-93

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 07:00:54 pm »
That's the same logic as saying that since the Air Force can just air strike enemy soldiers, the US doesn't need much of an Army. For brevity, let me just state that combined arms is always better than relying on one part and suggest you do some martial reading. ]url=http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/]Stardestroyer.net[/url] is a decent resource, especially since it's written with science fiction in mind.

I'm not saying they don't need an army, I'm saying that it just doesn't matter much, and they don't spend much in it. Since you yourself put it as example, the last tank used by US Army is the M1 Abrams, in service since 1980, and even now top of the line unit with no future replacement and with most of its service life still to come. Only 4 years earlier the US rolled out the F-15 Eagle, which production line will end this 2019, with one general remake (Strike Eagle), and a replacement unit ready. And even a better unit has been fielded already at 2005. And that's not speaking about the F-35 project, with a budget roughly equal to the cost of making a thousand tanks and still not a unit rolled out. And that's without orbital bombardment, without easy fuel and FTL travel. PACT probably has a big ground army, it just has a tenth of their budget of their space force and nobody considers it that important. They invade planets and send soldiers, and probably have some equivalents of tanks and artillery. It's just that all of that is easily blown out from orbit without problem, so it's not that important.

Also, you shouldn't link that kind of web if you want me to take you seriously. As much as I love Star Wars, half of its designs are retarded. Even Sunrider at least has the excuse of "magic Ryuvian technology" for Ryders. Star wars just put fighters and forgets about space, reality and physics.

Even if humanity was reduced to a single world, that still means that humanity could have easily spread to hundreds of millions of worlds.

Well, yeah, but what matters is the current universe, I was not talking about years ago. I was saying that canonically Alliance and PACT have their numbers of Core worlds in the hundred, and using what we know of cannon we have around 300 and 500 "core worlds" (roughly comparable to Earth in population and industry) in the galaxy.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 07:02:53 pm by Marx-93 »
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline Megillot

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 07:52:23 pm »
I'm not saying they don't need an army, I'm saying that it just doesn't matter much, and they don't spend much in it.

PACT have to have a *huge* army to hold all their conquered planets. Planets are big and densely populated - up to 40 billion people - perfect environment for an underground resistance even if planet's space forces were defeated, so PACT will need a loot of troops to protect their government and key facilities on occupied planets. Having military ships in orbit is good if they need to quickly burn couple of cities, not so much if they want to actually use planet's resources. PACT may had support from natives on initial stages of their rebellion, but it should be much harder for them to maintain control over their newly conquered Neutral Rim territories populated by freedom-loving rebel scum.
Only reason ground troops can not be a big dent in PACT war budget is if they have a stable flow of conscripts from their home worlds and if tanks and atmospheric fighters are dirt cheap in production compared to spacecraft. 

Offline GreatWyrmGold

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 08:01:21 pm »
I'm not saying they don't need an army, I'm saying that it just doesn't matter much, and they don't spend much in it. Since you yourself put it as example, the last tank used by US Army is the M1 Abrams, in service since 1980, and even now top of the line unit with no future replacement and with most of its service life still to come. Only 4 years earlier the US rolled out the F-15 Eagle, which production line will end this 2019, with one general remake (Strike Eagle), and a replacement unit ready. And even a better unit has been fielded already at 2005. And that's not speaking about the F-35 project, with a budget roughly equal to the cost of making a thousand tanks and still not a unit rolled out.
...You know that the Army is more than tanks, right? In fact, tanks are basically obsolete for the kinds of wars we're involved in these days. I promise you that we'd be getting a new line of tanks if we were going into the kind of war that the Abrams wouldn't cut it...or where tanks would fit into the typical battlefield.
A fairer way to compare the importance of various divisions is through funding. The Army gets about 32% of the US military budget. The Air Force gets 22%. If the Air Force was the dominant branch of the military and made a ground army largely obsolete, why are we spending almost half again as much on the Army?

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And that's without orbital bombardment, without easy fuel and FTL travel.
Orbital bombardment is overrated. Sure, it's positively easy for a single slug to manage a destructive force comparable to a nuclear weapon, but indiscriminate destruction is not always the answer. I think it's safe to say that it's almost never the answer--there's a good reason that nuclear weapons haven't been used since their debut in WWII, and it's not just MAD. It's even more problematic if you're planning to rule the bombarded area. A million people dead, a city destroyed? Congratulations--you just robbed yourself of a million people and a whole city!

As for the others, those are excellent reasons why the Space Army would need to invest in transport ships.

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Also, you shouldn't link that kind of web if you want me to take you seriously. As much as I love Star Wars, half of its designs are retarded. Even Sunrider at least has the excuse of "magic Ryuvian technology" for Ryders. Star wars just put fighters and forgets about space, reality and physics.
I'll explain what I see here.
"Star Wars is retarded. Sure, Sunrider is retarded too, but it has magic Ryuvian technology! Star Wars just has normal magic science fiction technology which functions exactly the same!"
Anyways, I wasn't linking for you to learn why the Empire would beat the Federation. It gives an in-depth look on modern military tactics as well, and also debunks a number of myths relating to science fiction. Its main goal (analyzing Imperial and Confederate [?] capabilities to see who would beat who) does lead to one of these myths being debunked quite effectively, given the Federation's over-reliance on spacecraft.

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Well, yeah, but what matters is the current universe, I was not talking about years ago. I was saying that canonically Alliance and PACT have their numbers of Core worlds in the hundred, and using what we know of cannon we have around 300 and 500 "core worlds" (roughly comparable to Earth in population and industry) in the galaxy.
I was pointing out that in the present universe, it would make sense for millions, not hundreds, of worlds to be inhabited.

Offline Marx-93

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 07:05:12 am »
The thing is I'm not saying PACT doesn't have a big army. It probably has an extremely numerous army, but it's just not important. The space force it's basically a union of both the Navy and air force, the only one with FTL and first-strike capabilities. Continuing with the US budget game, both Navy and Air force together have a little less than double the budget of the Army at only a little more personnel. In the future that's even more extreme, and I can probably see the Space Force having 5 or even 10 times the budget, depending on how ground technology has improved. Warp drives are probably extremely expensive, given that space travel is limited mostly to the military, and shield generators are the same. The personnel of both branches is roughly the same, but one operates 18 meters bipedal weapons with km long motherships, FTL drives, shield generators and WMDs which can glass entire planets. There seems to be an increase of importance of drones, but from what we've seen of them most were linked to ships, so it's very probable that they need some kind of computational center.

And about orbital bombardment: I was not referring to nuke everything. The answer to everything is this little weapon that tends to be ignored in-game but that it totally changes paradigm on the ground: Lasers. Speed of light, extremely precise at hundreds of thousand of km and lethal against anything that isn't shielded. They simply obliterate all hope of atmospheric resistance (shield generators seem to be extremely heavy and cumbersome), and are also perfect against the ground. The atmosphere will diffract it, but that's nothing that can't be corrected after 5 or 10 shots, and after that you'll have your precision. Not only that, lasers can be build on agile and smaller ships like frigates and Ryders, so you can simply deploy a squad of 50 around a planet and slowly go destroying all defences and military infrastructure. The only thing that can null their power is shield generators, but as I said, they are generally heavy, and if it has to be powerful it will probably require to be big. Even with generators, you'll also have to defend against orbital missile bombardment, the classic way, which will mean you'll have to put a suitable enough flak defense to not simply be overwhelmed. The only unit we have seen in-game with 100 SHD and FK that has not been lost technology is 4km behemoth. And that's a target just screaming "shoot me with your super cannon!". This last instance is were you use your vanguard cannon, not before.

I'll explain what I see here.
"Star Wars is retarded. Sure, Sunrider is retarded too, but it has magic Ryuvian technology! Star Wars just has normal magic science fiction technology which functions exactly the same!"
Anyways, I wasn't linking for you to learn why the Empire would beat the Federation. It gives an in-depth look on modern military tactics as well, and also debunks a number of myths relating to science fiction. Its main goal (analyzing Imperial and Confederate [?] capabilities to see who would beat who) does lead to one of these myths being debunked quite effectively, given the Federation's over-reliance on spacecraft.

What I meant is that Sunrider at least had the decency of trying to use an excuse, and it's actually a lot more consistent (though that is due to being a SRPG and not a movie). With Sunrider I at least have some known technology and some suppositions can be made: you have fusion reactors, nuclear warheads, lasers that go at the speed of light and shield generators which only follow the plot reasons. With Star Wars there's not even an intent to follow anything remotely sensible space-wise: the science does not make sense, the technology does not make sense, everything is rule of cool. Which is fine, but luckily most science fiction has at least grown of that phase, even if only by a bit.

A ground force is important yes, but its importance is entirely dependent on the Space force: You can't have a good ground army and a bad Space force, you'll end  badly. Mostly because the enemy has a chance to obliterate you and you don't. It doesn't matter if its profitable or not, the entire possibility is enough to settle most conflicts (as the nuclear bomb shows). If the other has a good army and a good space force, while you only have the latter, then he will have an edge. If the difference between space forces is small but the difference between ground forces is big, then you can settle a balance (what roughly happens on the link you put).
Why can only the evil have empires, power and majestic theme music? I reclaim the possibility of creating the Federal-democratic-free Empire! A (democratic) tyranny fueled by the Power of Love!

Started writing. You can check it out here: Home

Offline NewAgeOfPower

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 08:37:01 am »
And that's a target just screaming "shoot me with your super cannon!"

I fell off my chair laughing. Good one.
Working on a collaborative Sci-fi novella. Teaser here.

Feedback would be appreciated.

Offline GreatWyrmGold

Re: A few questions regarding the Sunrider universe
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2015, 01:52:38 am »
I'll address your arguments point-by-point without quoting them, since that just seems simpler at this point.

You claim that the army is probably unimportant and underfunded. I disagree for reasons stated above and below.
First off, you can't simply add the modern Navy and Air Force together for a Space Force, since the Air Force and Navy have functions that overlap quite a bit but which would lack this overlap in a Space Force. For instance, both have various types of WMD-launchers (the Air Force has bombers and ICBMs, the Navy has ballistic missile subs), but you wouldn't need them both in space.
Second off, a ground force wouldn't just be the Army. It would need at least a little bit of air support and engineering, even more so than when you're on the same planet as your home base and probably within a few hundred miles, if that, of a friendly base.
Finally, it's probably true that between the FTL drives, the shield generators, and the mecha, the PACT Space Force probably costs more than the PACT Army. Let me ask you something: Which do you spend more on, water bills or phone bills? Probably pretty close, maybe an advantage to the latter. Do you think that your phone is anywhere near as important as running water?

Lasers are remarkably problematic in atmospheres. For starters, there's going to be a lot of energy lost in heating up the atmosphere. I don't know where to start getting numbers on this, but a laser powerful enough to punch through the atmosphere isn't going to have a neat little blast mark where the army is and leave everything else untouched, especially if you're doing this more than once. You also have to deal with the fact that you're basically not going to be having exactly the right amount of energy, probably instead having plenty of additional energy delivered to the planet's surface, causing all sorts of fun problems which arise when you shatter and slag a significant portion of the planet's surface.
In case that's not present, getting the perfect little circle of burnt would still be impossible. That atmospheric diffraction isn't going to be diffracting every photon of your laser exactly the same; the energy is going to be a lot more dispersed over the surface than they would be from firing it at a target a hundred kilometers around--which would, incidentally, be a pretty significant amount. Even without atmosphere, you can expect every square centimeter of target to receive about a quarter as much energy, distributed over four times the area, each time you double the distance.
And that's not getting to the thorny problem of firing your super-accurate laser where the enemy army is rather than some other place. There's many things which could block your sight, from foliage to buildings to nasty weather to various sensor-jamming equipment that seems easy to come by in any supertech setting (and there are some roughly analogous technologies IRL). And, of course, even if you have some kind of Ryuvian artifact that lets you detect where on the planet all sentient life-forms are, how will you figure out which ones are the enemy army? Determining this is most easily-done with something known as a spotter, which is...men on the ground. (This is, incidentally, covered by stardestroyer.net. There's a reason I suggested that...)
And, of course, if shields can be put half a dozen to a typical fleet, why not have them protecting your important things? If they're light and efficient enough to put on a spaceship, a stationary city or base with access to the power grid would certainly be able to use them. Sure, anyone going outside would be in trouble, but why deploy your army if the other guy doesn't have boots on the ground?


Star Wars has several types of reactor which act roughly the same as fusion reactors in Sunrider. Their nuclear warheads I'll grant you, but Star Wars has the decency to make its space fighters look halfway sane rather than sticking limbs and goddang swords on them. The lasers go as much at the speed of light as the energy weapons in Star Wars, which are presumably as much lasers as a typical laser rifle has a rifled barrel (another point covered on stardestroyer.net). Sure, the energy weapons are inconsistent, but aside from lacking game mechanics to enforce that, you have dozens if not hundreds of authors over more than a quarter of a century and several separate media to piece through. Star Wars shields also follow the plot pretty well. And for all the technology Star Wars which is leagues beyond our own, it does a lot better at trying to explain how it works (enough to keep any writers who bother to keep track of that stuff consistent with each other) than Sundancer. Example: Where do your Ryders' bullets come from?
And when you say that Star Wars doesn't try to follow anything remotely sensible, are you trying to imply that Sundancer is? Don't make me laugh. Now, there's nothing wrong with a science fiction series relying more on the fiction side...as long as you're capable of admitting it. And no, science fiction which follows the laws of physics has if anything gotten rarer; most follows in the footsteps of Star Wars and Trek more than the original science fiction authors (who understood at least some space science and used it). Again, nothing wrong with this trend, as long as you recognize it.


Contrariwise, the Space Force still requires the Army to actually achieve any goals more than "blow up the enemy planet and rule the ashes". If you have a superior Space Force but no Army, you'll be the Lord of Space but with little ability to enforce your will on the groundhogs below. The only way you could do so is to convince them you'll blow them up if you don't, the only way to do that is to actually blow up some people who don't, and at that point you're really losing more to lost work force than you'd lose by getting a halfway decent ground invasion force.