The Hyperspace Forums

The Void => Sunrider => News => Topic started by: Vaendryl on June 11, 2015, 05:34:43 pm

Title: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 11, 2015, 05:34:43 pm
so, finally the long overdue patch 7.2 is released on steam. the previous version is still available if you run into compatibility issues via the 'betas' tab in the game's properties.

Perhaps most importantly, the game now asks you (after the credits) if you want to make a special save to be imported into libday. This saves a lot of hassle in answering another huge questionnaire.

patch notes:
* The game now runs on the latest renpy version (v6.99.3).
* Vanguard can now be aimed at spaces without ships [by EnderShadow]
* Player AI added [by EnderShadow]
* added icons for armor and shield negation, plus attacking with missiles now show the route the missiles will take on the map along with an indicator for combined intercept change between the attacker and the target. [by KingRaptor]
* the accuracy of energy weapons (laser+pulse) now degrade at a rate of 10 per hex instead of 15. to compensate, their base accuracy is reduced by 10. as a result, accuracy upgrades are now very valuable and costs for these have increased.
* energy damage now scales significantly better with upgrades. (compared to kinetics)
* increased the effect threat has on the AI. the Sunrider should now get targeted more often, assuming it does the most damage whereas units doing little damage will be ignored more easily by the AI.
* increased the energy cost of ShutOff for PACT support ryders to 60
* the AI can now use rockets again even if the target is still at 100% flak effectiveness.
* ryders spawned from a carrier will no longer attack on the same turn.
* the Phoenix now has the unique ability to start with half of her max energy after being restored to battle with the Resurrection order.
* the cost multiplier for Sunrider's missile storage upgrade is reduced from 3 to 2.
* The Black Jack had her melee attack energy cost reduced to 45 (from 50)
* the Black Jack now scales better with melee upgrades in general.
* added an upgrade in the store that reduces the Black Jack's movement cost to 15 (from 20). available after mission 5 (pirate base)
* added an item that reduces energy cost of the gravity gun from 60 to 40. available after mission 12 (far port)
* the furthest to the right you can now place units during formation phase is column 6 (down from 7). 1 exception is the 2nd escort mission (mission 18)
* The AI now considers attacking with melee a bit better.
* the repair upgrade for the Liberty now also reduces repair energy cost by 10EN. to compensate, the upgrade had its price increased to 1000$
* the Phoenix' max EN upgrades are now 25% cheaper, allowing for greater mobility and damage output.
* the player can test out all upgrades in skirmish mode, and skirmish mode is now available from mission 2 onwards.
* numerous bugfixes
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: [Astral|Zephyr] on June 11, 2015, 11:20:51 am
Nice! Now... where can we find this...? <_<
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 11, 2015, 09:25:25 pm
Nice! Now... where can we find this...? <_<

it's on steam :p
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: AkioKlaus on June 11, 2015, 09:55:33 pm
RIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT


GET THE BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERS

Updated: June 11, 2015, 10:00:23 pm
free vanguard aim. nice

lasers are going to separate itself from kinetics with range more clearly i see.

ahahahah they will waste rockets now

thank you so much for turn wait on spawned enemies.

hmm icari is not the sole melee...
well ill still use BJ as flak tank.

grav gun is a good one.

so much buff on player side. :D

question, would enemy try melee when they are certain to die from counter attack?
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 11, 2015, 11:15:37 pm
question, would enemy try melee when they are certain to die from counter attack?

not normally, no. however, the AI doesn't understand difficulty levels so it's a good possibility he'll run into you on VN mode expecting to get a few scratched but instead get obliterated. I also don't think it takes into account maybe getting countered by more than 1 ally.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: CommissarZek on June 11, 2015, 03:09:36 pm
Mostly bugfixes and improvements?  Awesome.  Gonna have to redo all my personal changes though, damn.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Marx-93 on June 11, 2015, 11:30:09 pm
Uoooo!

Finally! Thanks Vaen, I now have an excuse to replay Sunrider while waiting for Liberation Day. I agree with most of the fixes, and like a lot how the Phoenix seems to be shaping: continues to be an "special" ryder, but now the upgrades seems a lot more geared towards it, and the special ability is the kind of thing that is nice but not big enough to change the gameplay. 

Also, good compromise on the Sunriser's missiles, I'll save some money on it. My only minor complaint is that in the end, nothing much has been done to Claude, the Gravity Gun cost being driven down could have been without the need of the upgrade. How much do the BJ and Bianca upgrades cost?

We'll also need to see how the game will work, if we return to the loading times and freeze out of First Arrival...
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: woolyshambler on June 11, 2015, 03:52:14 pm
Will there be an option in Liberation Day to create an "imported" save by answering questions?  Basically a "you forgot what decisions you made didn't you?" tool.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: CommissarZek on June 11, 2015, 04:07:45 pm
Will there be an option in Liberation Day to create an "imported" save by answering questions?  Basically a "you forgot what decisions you made didn't you?" tool.
If this happens, it might be a good idea to make the custom importer its own file instead of the bottom part of the script.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 12, 2015, 12:27:55 am
How much do the BJ and Bianca upgrades cost?
750 each iirc.

Will there be an option in Liberation Day to create an "imported" save by answering questions?  Basically a "you forgot what decisions you made didn't you?" tool.
yup. there'll a screen with a lot of questions on it about what choices you made if you prefer that over importing data from MoA. Sam worked very hard on that :)

Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: woolyshambler on June 11, 2015, 04:31:04 pm
hot dog!
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Jynx on June 11, 2015, 05:37:27 pm
Thanks, I've been playing the beta and it's definitely a more polished game :P
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: The Bigfoot on June 11, 2015, 05:37:59 pm
This looks fantastic and you are a great person.

You are also a absolute %$!#^& as I had Just balanced my mod battles and now need to go through them all again and made a mission reward completely obsolete  :D.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 12, 2015, 02:08:52 am
This looks fantastic and you are a great person.

You are also a absolute %$!#^& as I had Just balanced my mod battles and now need to go through them all again and made a mission reward completely obsolete  :D.
thanks and sorry?
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: The Bigfoot on June 11, 2015, 06:10:20 pm
Mm dont take me seriously, I am really looking forward to replaying with 7.2.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: BlackStarLine on June 11, 2015, 06:55:15 pm
Welp, looks like i'm going to have to replay Sunrider again... Haven't played since I reinstalled windows a few months back...
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: John Titor on June 11, 2015, 06:58:15 pm
Let's convince a forum member to play through it all again on live cast while we spam him through the commbox!

... Or simply replay Sunrider 7.2 on our own...
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: BlackStarLine on June 11, 2015, 07:03:32 pm
The former sounds like a fun idea that I could get behind...
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Geocorn on June 12, 2015, 01:19:52 am
Is it intentional that beating the game still advertises for Rebirth of the Holy Empire?
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Lord Gorchnik on June 12, 2015, 09:54:58 am
Time for Gorchnik to open up a can.......for the 375th time.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: [Astral|Zephyr] on June 12, 2015, 10:13:24 am
Nice! Now... where can we find this...? <_<

it's on steam :p

Why steam... can't I just get it elsewhere?
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: 7twenty on June 12, 2015, 10:14:33 am
Just in time! I was thinking about making a new playthrough. I think I will go with a different playstyle this time through, maybe more of an anti-hero this time. I cannot wait!
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: NewAgeOfPower on June 12, 2015, 09:41:25 pm
a 400 kb patch downloaded today... whats up?

Updated: June 13, 2015, 07:47:19 am
Nevermind. Saw Samu's twitter.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Verthand on June 20, 2015, 10:06:36 pm
Took me a while, but i finally finished 7.2 today. I will write down my thoughts of that, probably most u all noticed it aswell but here goes:

* Vanguard can now be aimed at spaces without ships [by EnderShadow]

Made a major difference, since after u short warp the Sunrider gets eaten by everything. So it does makes a change if u can port a few hexes away from the target and use the vanguard in an empty hex instead of having to port right next to the target and get killed next turn.

* added icons for armor and shield negation, plus attacking with missiles now show the route the missiles will take on the map along with an indicator for combined intercept change between the attacker and the target. [by KingRaptor]
That was AWESOME. Before i always had to save before firing missiles since most of the times i wasnt sure of the route they would take. Thank your very much sir.

* the accuracy of energy weapons (laser+pulse) now degrade at a rate of 10 per hex instead of 15. to compensate, their base accuracy is reduced by 10. as a result, accuracy upgrades are now very valuable and costs for these have increased.
* energy damage now scales significantly better with upgrades. (compared to kinetics)
On my first 7.2 play i did try uprading the lasers, but kinetics was still much, much better, for many reasons, so i had to restart and upgraded the kinetics like always. But i did notice the laser accuracy is much better at long distances than before. Also, the ryders (especially Phoenix) are dodging a lot less lasers than before, so i think this change made the game harder and didnt improve much for the players. Maybe if the Union Frigates lasers could have their lasers upgraded then it would me more useful. At least they are missing less now too.

* increased the effect threat has on the AI. the Sunrider should now get targeted more often, assuming it does the most damage whereas units doing little damage will be ignored more easily by the AI.
I didnt feel much difference about that since the sunrider is not that exposed in my formation.

* increased the energy cost of ShutOff for PACT support ryders to 60
Made no difference for me, will be explained below.

* the AI can now use rockets again even if the target is still at 100% flak effectiveness.
ROCKETS. Those were the major change of the game for everyone. I even upgraded flak of all my units just bk of that. They made the game uber harder. Screw carriers, the priority now are the bombers or anything that fires rockets and can be taken down in one turn. This totally changed the game, making it much harder. But more challenging and rewarding too, and i tihnk it was how the game was supposed to be played in the first place.

* ryders spawned from a carrier will no longer attack on the same turn.
Made everyones life easier. Much, much easier. Now its possible to never be afflicted by enemy debuffs the whole game, since no map has more than 2 support ryders in turn 1, and the ones the carrier spawn no longer attack on the same turn. That made carriers way less dangerous than before, but still annoying since the new units he spawns can fire rockets if no taken down in one turn.

* the Phoenix now has the unique ability to start with half of her max energy after being restored to battle with the Resurrection order.
I guess u knew she would die all the time to those damn torps, didnt u!! Poor Icari ghost will haunt u for that. "Its all your fault, Captain!"

* The Black Jack had her melee attack energy cost reduced to 45 (from 50)
* the Black Jack now scales better with melee upgrades in general.
* added an upgrade in the store that reduces the Black Jack's movement cost to 15 (from 20). available after mission 5 (pirate base)
Well the Black Jack became a totally new ryder, much more efficient than before. Asaga at 15en move and ridiculous def/evade when she goes in berserk = unstoppable killing machine

* added an item that reduces energy cost of the gravity gun from 60 to 40. available after mission 12 (far port)
Genius idea. Now Claude is more than a debuffer than makes attack go up when Full Forward expires! W00t. I had plenty of fun dragging oppnents ryders 3 hexagons away from where they start lol. And i guess its one of the mains reasons we starting a collum back now?

* the furthest to the right you can now place units during formation phase is column 6 (down from 7). 1 exception is the 2nd escort mission (mission 18)
Now that made a major difference too, making it harder. But i liked it, at first i was surprised at how close we could start, taking in consideration the player turn goes first. I think 7.2 starting position makes the game more balanced.

* The AI now considers attacking with melee a bit better.
A BIT BETTER u say? In the side Far Port mission, 2 of the 3 nightmares decided to come to me in melee on the turn they spawned , took down 3 ryders since their melee one hit down anything, and thats bk phoenix dodged one of the attacks lol. The nightmares got mad for melee. The elite ryders are attacking with melee more often too, but at least their stats arent as crazy as the nightmares. So yes, it made side far port much harder than before.

* the repair upgrade for the Liberty now also reduces repair energy cost by 10EN. to compensate, the upgrade had its price increased to 1000$
* the Phoenix' max EN upgrades are now 25% cheaper, allowing for greater mobility and damage output.
Nice changes, but those werent didnt change the game that much for me.

In overall, i think 7.2 got way harder than before, but to the point where its still fun. I think when a game is too hard, it stops being fun and becomes just "hard". Also, I would make PACT start with 3 support ryders (then take one bomber out or something ffs), since u can take 2 down with Sola, and the ones that the carrier spawn wont attack on the same turn, so the player cant finish 7.2 without being debuffed at least once. Thats all, thanks for reading and for improving our so loved game sir!!
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: [Astral|Zephyr] on June 20, 2015, 10:29:04 pm
Is this available for download in the LiS homepage? I don't have steam & I don't want to get it from steam. Steam has caused a lot of problems for me in the past so I want to get it elsewhere if I can.

Anyone know where I can get the 7.2 patch outside of steam?
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Marx-93 on June 20, 2015, 10:55:50 pm
Uhm, from what Ver said and my own (admittedly very short, I probably won't make an extensive replay until July) impressions, it just turned back to 4.2-5.0, except now the Nightmares can be scary even after you know what do with them and the Elites are a little more dangerous like their stats say (they still don't know how to use Assault well, but now it's only a matter of time). Oh, and Carriers are dead weight and that basically makes Assault Carriers sad little things compared to the beasts they were (I mean, now they rank around Battleships on the priority list). It's got nothing on old times of 4.0 and the flak degeneration though: some missions may end considerably easier (I'm mainly thinking on the Ongess missions that have lots of carriers, thanks to the better accuracy of lasers now the ironhogs are also a lot more fragile).

I can say that while the laser buff hurts a little, it also helps you a lot if you know what to do. I loved my frigates before, but now even more, and the Black jack has received a lot of very minor upgrades that together have returned her to the place of "balanced stats" instead of "master of none" (though she still lacks serious punch or a more specific path towards which upgrade her, I think around the end of the game she ends obsolete again, but if we'll have the awaken option in Liberation day then we have nothing to worry).
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 21, 2015, 03:35:03 pm
Thanks for the extensive feedback, Verthand :) I enjoyed reading that and I'm happy to see that most of the changes seem to have their intended effect.

Is this available for download in the LiS homepage? I don't have steam & I don't want to get it from steam. Steam has caused a lot of problems for me in the past so I want to get it elsewhere if I can.

Anyone know where I can get the 7.2 patch outside of steam?
not really. you could potentially download the new code from github (link in sig) but that will not update renpy itself to the latest version which -might- give strange results as I haven't tested this code with the old version of renpy. it'll probably be fine, but I can make no guarantees.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Histidine on June 27, 2015, 09:01:04 pm
Mission 2 is surprisingly hard now (four enemy laser units + no shield = dead meat). Given that the Sunrider shield upgrade is also probably mandatory now (not that it wasn't already a no-brainer) it might be worth just building it in from the start.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on June 27, 2015, 10:54:46 pm
Mission 2 is surprisingly hard now (four enemy laser units + no shield = dead meat). Given that the Sunrider shield upgrade is also probably mandatory now (not that it wasn't already a no-brainer) it might be worth just building it in from the start.
same goes for them, though :) snipe that loli!
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Marx-93 on June 27, 2015, 04:11:36 pm
Mission 2 is surprisingly hard now (four enemy laser units + no shield = dead meat). Given that the Sunrider shield upgrade is also probably mandatory now (not that it wasn't already a no-brainer) it might be worth just building it in from the start.
same goes for them, though :) snipe that loli!

Actually, as Cosette is a lot harder to destroy, I think the idea is more of suing a combination of laser and missiles to either get a destroyer or 1 and a half pirate Ryders on the first turn, and after you get the Black jack we can already focus on the loli. As lasers matter more now there's a constant need to end the small fries instead of letting them hang around. It's true though that a newbie who just went after the first mission this second one may destroy them.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Jynx on June 28, 2015, 04:51:17 pm
I did not have such problems with the difficulty.
The game IS a bit harder than before, but nothing impossible to handle (at least, not on Captain difficulty). Kinetics are still a bit too powerful, probably, and not really on par with the lasers. But that is somehow forced, since the enemy spawns massive quantity of laser attacks, and almost no kinetic (since their cannons have such terrible accuracy...).

I am definitely glad of this update; I had to update my playstile a bit because of it, but it was not revolutionary. I still rely on a standard Full Forward + clutched formation with heavy kinetic power. I fail to find any tactical situation which requires me to act differently.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Histidine on June 29, 2015, 04:28:03 am
It's possibly at least partly because I have more experience with Sunrider now, but I'm finding the mid to late game (I'm coming up on the battle with the Legion now) a fair bit easier.

On the other hand, the Agamemnon escort mission is still as hard as ever.

Highlights of my 7.2 playthrough:
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on July 25, 2015, 06:58:56 pm
Here are some thoughts on v7.2. after playing a little bit recently (first 5 battles). Giving Space Whale mode a try, now that the AI is mostly fixed. No more suicidal mooks! And lasers are deadly in 7.2. There's a v4.2 feel to the battles, as in enemy units would hang back and shoot the crap out of you instead of advancing into kinetic range. Rockets are back as well. Amen to that.  :D

I'm not entirely sure if I would like to go heavy kinetics with Sunrider in this version, whereas in v6.0b, kinetics were clearly ahead and especially in v7.1, it was a no-brainer with all the suicidal units. I probably still will as overlapping shields kills laser damage outright.
But its pretty tempting to invest a little in lasers at least to make the earlier parts smoother as I find I really didn't use kinetics much at all for the first 5 battles, and laser damage and laser energy reduction upgrades are really cheap in this version. Mooks don't venture close enough to make Assault/Kinetic viable. Even PACT cruisers are pretty skittish and prefer lasers over kinetics. Most units that I blasted away readily with kinetics were not threats anyway, ie Missile Frigates which had used up all missiles and had no choice but to approach and Bombers which had used up rockets and all missiles and had no choice but to close in to use Assault.

It might be possible to advance into kinetic range and hit enemies at close range, but I reckon its going to require a good deal of defensive upgrades like additional shielding. In Space Whale mode, the damage you take at the start of encounters doesn't seem repairable if you advance outright (ie nearly 900 laser damage per turn (shielded by Liberty) from 6 enemy units in Versta, and even more when Phoenix shows up).
I frequently relied on Blackjack to take aggro to get some misses, because if the enemy is aiming Sunrider, they're almost certain not to miss.

Pulse is now a pretty strong option in lots of battles as increased laser damage from upgrades overcomes armor more easily. Giving Sunrider and Blackjack enough energy to execute a laser and a pulse per turn made earlier battles a good deal easier.

So yea, I would say so far I've found things play out quite differently this time as compared to v7.1. Its really closer to v4.2 (which was a really good and stable release) in mood if anything else.
 

Some issues I've found:
1)Accuracy upgrades for energy weapons (Laser/Pulse) currently still do not work. If Britnoth were here, I fancy he'd look upon this rather disapprovingly lol. :P Right now lasers don't need additional accuracy so its not a big issue. Later on as pulses gain even more ascendance due to increased damage, upgrading accuracy to optimize pulse damage may become a strong option.
Suggest to quick fix this as soon as possible. Non-functioning upgrades are never trivial bugs.


* The Black Jack had her melee attack energy cost reduced to 45 (from 50)
2)Blackjack's melee energy cost is 40 for me.


3)Liberty's Disable prevents an enemy unit from doing anything for 1 turn which is correct, but it takes away enemy flak and shielding for 2 turns which doesn't fit its description.


4)Space Whale mode now gives (net credits x 10)/(turns + 4) CP after battles. The CP displayed after battle is correct and the actual amount given is also correct. However the official wiki still states the constant as 3 instead of 4.
http://sunrider.gamepedia.com/Command_points
The other difficulty modes probably need rechecking and correction as well.


P/S - Also noticed that previous proposed changes to Full Forward, reducing its duration to 4 turns and more importantly reducing the buff to +10% dmg, +15% accuracy (from +20% dmg, +15% accuracy) were not mentioned in patch notes. Not implemented? If so we're going to end up with a patch with mostly just buffs (apart from the AI bugfixes... which should have happened anyway), which makes me a rather sad panda.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Histidine on July 26, 2015, 11:26:58 am
The 1-2-1-2 duration bug on shield debuff from shield jam also needs fixing.

Looks like a wrong comparison operator (https://github.com/vaendryl/Sunrider/blob/e728a18418956e89e0a7725dfe748b19d0f08418/functions.rpy#L210) (is the check for current duration even needed?)
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on July 26, 2015, 11:11:24 pm
<<great feedback>>

Hey Drath! Always great to hear your extensive thoughts on the state of the game :)
I'm aware of the issue with accuracy upgrades but I'm loathe to upload a new build when I'm neck deep in LibDay development. (first patreon beta in a few days. eep)
overall it seems most of my intentions were achieved, which is good to hear!

I'll need to take another look at BlackJack's melee cost. not sure if I should fix the notes or the code xD

the Disable ability completely locks down a unit which does indeed include shield generation and flak and this is intentional. although shielding doesn't seem to cost EN points and flak fires automatically in-universe they do in fact require both power and pilot action, both of which are impossible when completely disabled. Maybe the description could state it more explicitly.

the wiki is out of date in the case of CP. I don't really take any particular pains to keep it up to date  ::)

I fully planned for Full Forward and All Guard to get nerfed pretty hard but Sam nixed that at pretty much the last moment, saying the game was balanced around full forward being there and the game becoming too hard without it.

The 1-2-1-2 duration bug on shield debuff from shield jam also needs fixing.

Looks like a wrong comparison operator (https://github.com/vaendryl/Sunrider/blob/e728a18418956e89e0a7725dfe748b19d0f08418/functions.rpy#L210) (is the check for current duration even needed?)
abusing the frigate's shield jam ability to extend shield debuff duration when it's at 1 turn was intentional as a bit of an advanced trick, but I'm not sure if you're referring to something else. well, this will be a moot point soon anyway.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Histidine on July 27, 2015, 03:21:43 am
the Disable ability completely locks down a unit which does indeed include shield generation and flak and this is intentional. although shielding doesn't seem to cost EN points and flak fires automatically in-universe they do in fact require both power and pilot action, both of which are impossible when completely disabled. Maybe the description could state it more explicitly.
Hmm, I read that part as bringing up the following behaviour:

Turn 1 player: Use disable, target has no flak or shield
Turn 1 enemy: Target disabled, can't move
Turn 2 player: Target has no flak or shield
Turn 2 enemy: Target can move again (also gets back its flak and shield)

So from a certain way of counting it, the flak/shield off effect lasts for two turns but the energy disable for only one.
I agree that it's kinda odd, but not sure if fixing is worthwhile.

Quote
The 1-2-1-2 duration bug on shield debuff from shield jam also needs fixing.

Looks like a wrong comparison operator (https://github.com/vaendryl/Sunrider/blob/e728a18418956e89e0a7725dfe748b19d0f08418/functions.rpy#L210) (is the check for current duration even needed?)
abusing the frigate's shield jam ability to extend shield debuff duration when it's at 1 turn was intentional as a bit of an advanced trick, but I'm not sure if you're referring to something else. well, this will be a moot point soon anyway.
Hm, if it's supposed to only extend the debuff duration if it's currently 1 turn, that's fine. Problem is if you cast it when the duration is 2, it goes back down to 1 :(
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on July 27, 2015, 08:40:04 am
I fully planned for Full Forward and All Guard to get nerfed pretty hard but Sam nixed that at pretty much the last moment, saying the game was balanced around full forward being there and the game becoming too hard without it.

Lol isn't Sam usually the one who wants to make things more difficult :P Well I was always ok with reducing Full Forward and All Guard duration to 4 turns. As for reducing the FF buff to 10% dmg, initially I wasn't in favor of it
(and I can understand Samu-kun's reasoning), but seeing as we're getting so many small buffs, its only natural that we should get some significant nerfs too. As it doesn't seem like CP will be carried forward to Liberation Day as you all have said that CP works differently, it is now even more important that all CP be spent in Mask of Arcadius.

Therefore:
1)Any change which promotes more CP use (reducing buff duration) and any change that reduces CP given at end of battles (increasing constant for equation) will always be met with approval.

2)We still need some CP sinks in the game, in terms of story. If Samu-kun decides to revisit MoA after Liberation Day, that's one of the first things that should be considered.


Now that I have some idea of what's going on, I've decided to mod my game from this point onwards, to alter FF to 10% dmg, 4 turns and AG to 4 turns as originally planned, to see if its doable or if its too much. Because I am still
after all a beta tester and I reckon that's what devs use testers for lol. Nope, I don't know if I can still beat the game, but for me not knowing is half the fun. ;)
And since I haven't used FF or AG in the first 5 battles (though I certainly expect that I will use FF in the escort mission), the results should be valid overall.

Code changes to classes.rpy for original proposal:
Code: [Select]
        def battle_order_full_forward(self):
                self.active_strategy = ['full forward',4]

                    if apply_modifier(ship,'accuracy',15,4): succesful = True
                    if apply_modifier(ship,'damage',10,4): succesful = True

                    store.show_message('All ships gain 10% damage and 15% accuracy!')


        def battle_order_all_guard(self):

                        if ship.modifiers['damage'][0] == 10:
                            ship.modifiers['damage'] = [0,0]

                self.active_strategy = ['all guard',4]
                for ship in player_ships:
                    if ship.flak > 0:
                        if apply_modifier(ship,'flak',20,4): succesful = True
                    if ship.shield_generation > 0:
                        if apply_modifier(ship,'shield_generation',10,4): succesful = True
                    if apply_modifier(ship,'evasion',10,4): succesful = True
If there are other changes I need to make apart from those above, please let me know. I'll test in-game as well to make sure the changes are working.


I'll need to take another look at BlackJack's melee cost. not sure if I should fix the notes or the code xD

Either will be fine, though I'll admit that being able to have Black Jack pull off 2 melee strikes on Havoc in battle 2
felt good as the battle is pretty tight on Space Whale if the rocket from Havoc hits. 2 strikes is only possible if melee cost is 40 as Havoc doesn't seem to venture into BlackJack's melee range while using Assault, so you'll have to use 20E to move BlackJack 1 hex to close in.


the Disable ability completely locks down a unit which does indeed include shield generation and flak and this is intentional. although shielding doesn't seem to cost EN points and flak fires automatically in-universe they do in fact require both power and pilot action, both of which are impossible when completely disabled. Maybe the description could state it more explicitly.
Hmm, I read that part as bringing up the following behaviour:

Turn 1 player: Use disable, target has no flak or shield
Turn 1 enemy: Target disabled, can't move
Turn 2 player: Target has no flak or shield
Turn 2 enemy: Target can move again (also gets back its flak and shield)

So from a certain way of counting it, the flak/shield off effect lasts for two turns but the energy disable for only one. I agree that it's kinda odd, but not sure if fixing is worthwhile.

Yep, Histidine elaborated it better but that's exactly what I meant. One of the reasons to use Shield Off or Flak Off is that those debuffs last 2 turns. So if you didn't mind the enemy moving/shooting but didn't want it to have flak and shields for 2 turns, you would use Shield Off then Flak Off.

If you make Disable = no flak or shield for 2 turns, in additional to having enemy not moving/shooting for 1 turn, that kinda makes Shield Off and Flak Off a good deal less likely to see use. So yes I would say fixing it is worthwhile.


On updating the wiki, I didn't mean for the devs to fix it. Pretty sure you guys have enough on your plate and your time should be spent on making Liberation Day and not worrying about documentation. As our wiki caretakers have
more or less been Marx and Histidine, I would like them to resume the updates when convenient for them. And here's a thank you once again from me for all the work you all have put in to the wiki. Much appreciated. :)


I'm aware of the issue with accuracy upgrades but I'm loathe to upload a new build when I'm neck deep in LibDay development. (first patreon beta in a few days. eep)
P/S - first Liberation Day beta out soon... whoa, that's big news!! xD


PP/S - Some notes on energy (laser/pulse) upgrade progression which I'm finding fairly excessive at the moment.

The previous state of energy (laser/pulse) upgrades in 7.1:
1)energy damage upgrades use (95)(1.45)^(Mk-2) progression which is cheaper than kinetic damage upgrades
2)energy cost upgrades are similar to kinetic cost upgrades and use (100)(2.0)^(Mk-2) progression


What was posted in the "some ideas to discuss" thread (and largely agreed upon by forumers as good/appropriate changes):
1)laser weapons damage upgrade now increases damage in increments of 7.5% instead of 5
2)and energy cost upgrade multiplier goes from 2.0 to 1.8


What was posted at the start of this thread in patch notes:
energy damage now scales significantly better with upgrades. (compared to kinetics)

... pretty vague lol, trying to fudge matters? :P


What was actually implemented in the current 7.2 live version:
1)laser weapons damage upgrade now increases damage in increments of 10% instead of 5 and damage upgrade multiplier was reduced from 1.5 to 1.3
2)and energy cost upgrade multiplier goes from 2.0 to 1.8 and decreases energy costs in steps of 7.5% instead of 5

The bolded text are the differences between originally suggested changes which IMHO were fairly reasonable and current implementation which IMHO might be a tad excessive, in particular the increment from 5 to 7.5% for energy cost reduction and increment from 7.5 to 10% for energy damage. Would like to hear some views from the rest as well.




Update on missions:
Finished the 1st escort mission yesterday. I didn't kill everything. Wasn't expecting to. If I didn't do it on Hard before with suicidal units, I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to do it on Space Whale with proper AI and with Full Forward nerfed to 10% damage, 15% accuracy for 4 turns. So yea finished at 9 turns as expected.

Tried to see what would happen if I left things alone for 1 turn and as expected even 1 round of lasers from 6 cruisers proved too much for Agamemnon to take. I was left with about 1.4k worth of CP at that point, so there's no question on trying to use All Guard to hang on. Just not enough CP to even think about doing it.


* The AI now considers attacking with melee a bit better.

In the escort mission I came to a point where Phoenix was technically in range of BlackJack but I was thinking Phoenix would be using Stealth, thereby needing another 20E before she would close in, and Blackjack could weather an Assault barrage. But nope, she closed in right away by marching forward 6 hexes (60E) and sliced the hell (40E) out of BlackJack for 700+ damage! Ouch. She didn't even take any counterattack. Reloaded that one lol, but yea if that's what you mean by "AI now considers attacking with melee a bit better." its certainly an improvement.  :D
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Histidine on August 01, 2015, 02:58:37 am
I went for a mixed upgrade build and having affordable double lasers was nice - gives the Sunrider a secondary long-range support function, and makes Black Jack actually useful (hue hue hue). But it might be too affordable.

It seems likely that a pure laser build might get ridiculously powerful in the long run with the super efficient upgrades, particularly once Mining Union frigates become available. There'd be no way the enemy could win a standoff laser engagement against a player with upgraded shields unless multiple PACT Supports are available, and possibly not even then.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on August 02, 2015, 03:57:45 am
I went for a mixed upgrade build and having affordable double lasers was nice - gives the Sunrider a secondary long-range support function, and makes Black Jack actually useful (hue hue hue). But it might be too affordable.

It seems likely that a pure laser build might get ridiculously powerful in the long run with the super efficient upgrades, particularly once Mining Union frigates become available. There'd be no way the enemy could win a standoff laser engagement against a player with upgraded shields unless multiple PACT Supports are available, and possibly not even then.

Yep, that's exactly my concern. Right now for Sunrider, you get an additional 20 damage with each laser upgrade which is similar to kinetics. This allows lasers to keep up in terms of damage done and at high levels of energy cost reduction, this may potentially put laser/pulse ahead as you can spam them more often compared to kinetics.

I've only invested heavily in lasers for Blackjack, which is a given for me at this point. Like you, I've also opted for mixed upgrade for flexibility. I won't deny part of it was fueled by indecision though. Just finished Far Port and I think I'll wait and see how Blackjack does in the latter part of the game, with Mining Union frigates. Based on that, I'll probably decide as to whether to be more kinetic focussed or go for lasers.


Table comparing credits and CP between 7.1a, Hard and 7.2, Space Whale with 10% dmg, 4 turn FF attached.
Table comparing upgrades at the end of First Arrival between the 2 versions above also attached.


Some thoughts at halfway mark. Battles are still doable, but really tight in terms of upgrade selection and damage distribution. This is the only playthrough where I felt CP actually matters, and yes CP is greatly reduced because:
1)Space Whale tax hits both credits and therefore also CP for 20%
2)longer battle durations due to a functioning AI that keeps its distance (there are even some cases where it backs off slightly) and also reduced damage output
3)a constant of 4 added to turns spent ensures no easy CP gain even from fast victories (yes we were really too pampered in 7.1 lol)


On missions:
There's quite a lot of difference in turns between the 2 versions for early missions, for example PACT Spire times. Without enough upgrades, Blackjack is weak and the current AI for mooks and cruisers which prefer to harass with long range laser shots prolongs battles considerably. At Space Whale difficulty moving forward into kinetic range is really risky and will likely result in a unit or two getting killed. Even at laser range, I quite frequently found Sunrider and Blackjack down to less than 1/3rd of their original health in these earlier missions, which is reminiscent of v4.2 playthroughs.

Relied a lot on getting aggro on Blackjack early on as Sunrider is a bit too easy to hit. Beefed up Phoenix a bit more than usual and made her my main dodge tank in later battles.
In the later battles, I also quite frequently found damage not quite enough to finish off enemy units. On 7.1 Hard, Seraphim was one shotting mooks and Phoenix was one shotting bombers just fine, with Full Forward. Now on 7.2 Space Whale with a (self-modded) nerfed Full Forward (10% dmg), neither Seraphim nor Phoenix are able to one shot, which is irritating as getting another unit to do cleanup requires expending resources which are no longer readily available. Blackjack with enough laser/pulse upgrades is a potent damage doer and shouldn't be saddled with using Assault to cleanup (actually don't think I used Assault at all for Blackjack during the current playthrough as Pulse just scales too well).

Farming reinforcements at Wedding Crash was pretty hellish with the new AI and increased damage taken. Had to use VC to clear units and even then although I managed to kill most of the top half of reinforcements (same strategy as before), Sunrider was brought really low in hps despite starting at 1500. At the end of this battle, I spent most of my CP, and could not even afford an additional order to speed things up. Spent an extra turn at the end just to recover from all the damage taken.


On upgrades:
For Sunrider, I took off Evasion (unnecessary if you can make the AI target Blackjack and Phoenix most of the time) and missile upgrades (laser upgrades were too attractive early on, and with longer times needed to complete missions, missiles get less and less favored).

At 115EN and 3 laser cost upgrades, Blackjack dishes out 3 pulses per turn or 2 lasers. I found this a nice point to settle into and usually didn't have too much trouble hitting enemy units. Mooks and other ryders are still hard to target with pulses, but there usually are other good options, for example, a half health capital ship disabled by Liberty. With enough damage upgrades (went up to 51 damage per pulse), capital ship armor is no longer a big barrier. I generally don't use pulses if their armor is still more than 20, but anything around 10 or below is fair game.

No upgrades for Liberty this time round. Didn't seem to be worth it at this stage. Will probably get the repair booster and also give her 120EN at some point in the latter half of the game.

As Seraphim and Phoenix can no longer one-shot units at base values on Space Whale, I had to upgrade damage for both quite a bit, which is something I didn't do much back on Hard difficulty.

Always thought Kinetic cost reduction was a bit of a waste for Bianca as sometimes she's on Aim Down duty and on others Gravity Pull is a better choice than a straight shot. And once she gets 120EN, she'll have 2 shots anyway without needing Kinetic cost reduction.

Paladin upgrades remained essentially the same though I skimped on energy and just gave her enough for 2 kinetics or 1 kinetic + 2 missiles. At 110EN, she moves like a slug though. Had half a mind to use Bianca to drag her into position with Gravity Gun at Far Port.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on August 06, 2015, 03:58:18 pm
A few more issues to bring up on 7.2:

In 7.1, for missile energy cost reduction upgrades the progression was (100)(2.0)^(Mk-2)
In 7.2, for missile energy cost reduction upgrades the progression is now (150)(2.5)^(Mk-2) which results in more costly upgrades.

Well its not an issue at all for me as I only use missiles for burst damage, don't have many to start with, and therefore never bothered with reducing the energy cost to use them and detected this issue pretty late.
However as its not documented in the list of changes at the start of this thread nor in the suggested list of changes in the old "some ideas to discuss" thread, it would be nice to know the reason for these changes (if intended) or revert to original progression (if a bug).


Played a bit with Union Mining Frigates and can confirm what Histidine mentioned earlier on their debuff duration being bugged. Trying to increase the potency of the debuff from 30%, 2 turns to 45%, will drop duration to 1 turn. It should stay at 2 turns instead of flip flopping between 1 and 2 turns whenever another ShdJam is applied.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Marx-93 on August 06, 2015, 05:26:08 pm
Wait, we decided that missiles had to get buffed, not nerfed, specially if laser got such a buf!

As a missile player that has slowly shifted his playstyle due to being nerfed constantly, I'm sad.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Cliff_Mastah_15 on August 18, 2015, 10:14:22 pm
has anyone beaten space whale difficulty w/o cheating? just curious. And I'll be honest, i am being a bit lazy w/ reading the thread today.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Verthand on August 20, 2015, 01:45:31 am
There is a person that posted s/s of it on steam.

I doubt its veracity though...
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on October 07, 2015, 12:56:23 pm
Sunrider Penta-Pulse at 2nd escort mission: 470 dmg per strike! (before factoring in difficulty) Takes Assault Carriers from 1300+ hps to 0 (on Space Whale). xD
 
If played on Captain, that's more or less enough dmg to down an Assault Carrier all on its own in 1 turn. Who needs Sunrider kinetics lol. I'm declaring Pulse, your new damage overlord in 7.2.


P/S - Yes I know Pulse is still limited by overlapping shields and heavy armor and is not the be all end all, but I wanted to make a stronger point, as people are generally all still in the kinetics camp and not exploring Pulse sufficiently.
With judicious application of ShutOff/Disable/ShieldJam, plus killing off units with shields first via kinetics/missiles, plus weakening units with heavy armor first, you can get to a point where pulse damage consistently bests kinetic damage (assuming cumulative cost comparable upgrades for damage/cost reduction and even with the currently non-functional energy accuracy upgrades).
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on October 07, 2015, 06:33:54 am
Sunrider Penta-Pulse at 2nd escort mission: 470 dmg per strike! (before factoring in difficulty) Takes Assault Carriers from 1300+ hps to 0 (on Space Whale). xD
 
If played on Captain, that's more or less enough dmg to down an Assault Carrier all on its own in 1 turn. Who needs Sunrider kinetics lol. I'm declaring Pulse, your new damage overlord in 7.2.


P/S - Yes I know Pulse is still limited by overlapping shields and heavy armor and is not the be all end all, but I wanted to make a stronger point, as people are generally all still in the kinetics camp and not exploring Pulse sufficiently.
With judicious application of ShutOff/Disable/ShieldJam, plus killing off units with shields first via kinetics/missiles, plus weakening units with heavy armor first, you can get to a point where pulse damage consistently bests kinetic damage (assuming cumulative cost comparable upgrades for damage/cost reduction and even with the currently non-functional energy accuracy upgrades).

just how many attack upgrades do you need for that :o
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on October 07, 2015, 08:47:10 am
On Kinetic Vs Pulse upgrade analysis:
Ok basically the deal is: for every Kinetic strike that you put out, you get around 2+ Pulse strikes (assuming cost comparable cost reduction upgrades, refer to attachment for more detail). This 2:1 ratio starts midgame and gradually amps up to 2.5 and has a likelihood of hitting 2.67 in the last few battles).

Again assuming cost comparable damage upgrades, Pulse damage is likely to have at least about a 0.87 damage ratio (470/540) to Kinetic damage after Ongess (refer to attachment for more detail).

Coupled with cost reduction upgrades and taking into account 2:1 strike ratio, overall pulse damage to kinetic damage ratio tends to start around 1.74 in early MoA and progressively increases to 2.17 after Ongess and will in all likelihood leave kinetics further in the dust by end of MoA. In other words if your kinetics are doing 1000 dmg per turn, pulse should be doing roughly 2170 dmg if you had opted for it.


Some other associated thoughts on the whole matter:
I actually prefer the old balance, where there was a time for Assault if mooks were near, there was a time for Pulse when dealing with semi-armored ships like frigates at middling distance and there was a time for Lasers when facing high evasion ships like Nightmares. Kinetics were the usual bread and butter of course, which fitted the idea that they were main weapon. So basically every attack option had its place.

These days, its Pulse city all the way. I've actually not used Kinetics for quite a while ever since getting Mining Union Frigates. Definitely did not use Kinetics at all at the 2 Ongess fights and the 2nd escort mission. And even before then, Pulse was also strong in the early game, in fights with just Sunrider and the first 2 ryders. I sometimes don't use missiles early these days (preferring to reserve them for reinforcements which spawn far away) because pulse is comparable in damage and energy cost.
Laser/Pulse deserved a boost certainly from v7.1, but its difficult to see kinetics as Sunrider's main weapon when energy upgrades are so potent.

How strong is Pulse? Well I actually cut off 1 turn for the 2nd escort mission from my 7.1 Hard playthrough, despite playing on Space Whale and having 10% FF dmg, and had just 1 enemy unit left on turn 9, so if better optimized, cutting off 2 turns could be possible. I also used way less orders (2FF, 1SRW, 1VC) compared to my original mess up of (2FF, 3SRW, 3VC, 2Res). You could say part of it might be due to my familiarity with the battle this time round but I maintain that apart from the fact that spawned enemy ryders do not act on the turn they are spawned, Pulse was a major factor in making the battle easier.


Disclaimer:
Admittedly I did sell the Wish All this time round to get more credits as I felt a little cramped by Space Whale tax. Mostly I wanted to give Laser/Pulse a serious try. Its good to see at least the Wish All isn't taxable (and don't you dare change it :P).
There are some previous upgrades that I nixed. For instance, I didn't even get double kinetics for Seraphim this time round. On Space Whale, her damage is not sufficient to one shot PACT Supports so Phoenix has to tackle that job most of the time.
So yea, 7.2 Pulse for the win lol... probably by too much of a margin.


Summary:
Pulse is VERY strong in MoA late game and extremely upgrade efficient in terms of overall credit cost compared to other upgrade options. People on Steam, various recent v7.2 reviewers who are still ranting about Energy weaponry being weak and not a viable upgrade path in the endgame, need to wake up lol. I didn't upgrade to triple kinetics on Sunrider in my old Hard playthrough but as you can see from the attachment below, for the price of triple kinetics, you can basically get OctaPulse mania!!! xD
Waiting for v7.3, where Laser/Pulse accuracy upgrades are fixed but Laser/Pulse damage and cost reduction upgrades get the nerfbat :P


EDIT: The previous table was done in haste and had an error for the Pulse dmg column, which I have now corrected. It does not change the conclusions above. If anything it makes the difference between Pulse vs Kinetics even more marked.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Marx-93 on October 08, 2015, 03:28:44 am
I concur that the problem seems to be the upgrades more than the base. That was clear in fact in Liberation Day, where, while I noticed the improvement in pulse, I was busy using the fairly nicely upgraded laser in comparison to the more base pulse. Drath's tables make it apparent, specially on the damage upgrades: In late First arrival pulse needed an increase in power due to the heavier armour of enemies. Not only that, there was the not-so-great accuracy (against Ryders) and shields: of all that power at least 50% would be lost with misses, armour, etc.

Now however you can basically duplicate pulse's power by 4000$, which is a pitiance at MoA end-game. The bigger vessels, which before where protected by distance now are left open to it, and  with around 60 power Pulse laughs at even 20 defense. Their target before were mainly Ryders and the odd frigate, but now are the bigger ships. Still, I think Drath exaggerates a little when talking about breaking the game: against Assault carriers they are godsend, but one of the changes in 7.2 is that now the main enemies are not only them, but also battleships. And battleships have enough shield and armour to outright block pulse. While you can go around that (Paladin and Seraphim), it's not like you can "pulse everyday", which is what in my definition would break the game. Simply change the upgrades on power (not even need to change the cost) and they will become a good weapon and not a balance breaker.

Also Drath, how it worked with the pulse on the BlackJack? If the reason are mainly upgrades, then hers, with lower bases and so lower growths) shouldn't be as brutal.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on October 08, 2015, 03:43:56 am
Not only that, there was the not-so-great accuracy (against Ryders) and shields: of all that power at least 50% would be lost with misses, armour, etc.

The not-so-great accuracy in previous versions has been improved a ton by having 10% accuracy loss per hex for energy weapons in 7.2 (previously 15% for both energy and kinetic weapons), so accuracy is not a major consideration against capital ships. Once energy accuracy upgrades are fixed, they shouldn't be an issue for smaller ships either. It was predicted (http://innomenpro.com/forums/index.php?topic=790.msg19516#msg19516) that Pulse would be strong in 7.2 as a result of this and massive upgrade boosts are not really needed.


Now however you can basically duplicate pulse's power by 4000$, which is a pitiance at MoA end-game. The bigger vessels, which before where protected by distance now are left open to it, and  with around 60 power Pulse laughs at even 20 defense. Their target before were mainly Ryders and the odd frigate, but now are the bigger ships.

Indeed!


Still, I think Drath exaggerates a little when talking about breaking the game: against Assault carriers they are godsend, but one of the changes in 7.2 is that now the main enemies are not only them, but also battleships. And battleships have enough shield and armour to outright block pulse. While you can go around that (Paladin and Seraphim), it's not like you can "pulse everyday", which is what in my definition would break the game.

My answer to missions featuring lots of Battleships (and Cruisers to a lesser extent) is Vanguard Cannon. You get a base of 528 dmg in Space Whale, upgradable to 660 dmg with another extra hex thrown in, which takes Battleships down to 940hps. Throw in 1 kinetic and you'll find that its armor now drops below 20 and is a viable target for Pulse after being deshielded. Of course if you're trying to Pulse a fully armored, fully shielded Battleship, that will be an exercise in futility.

Assault Carriers are ideal targets because they come unshielded, don't have high evasion and start with only 20 armor which isn't much for a capital ship. Throw in a kinetic or two and they're ripe for Pulse destruction.

PACT Elites are also good targets if you can get close enough, either through Short Range Warp direct to their spawn point for better placement, or using Gravity Gun to pull them closer. They feature no shields and very little armor so their only defence is their considerable evasion.
Once energy accuracy upgrades are fixed, Pulse will become even stronger Vs Elites, Supports and regular mooks and bombers, but even as things stand to this day, there isn't a marked lack of suitable targets if you play carefully.

So yea I maintain that any ship can be Pulsed as long as you can make the conditions suitable for its use, which as of the present is certainly achievable. I wouldn't say that Pulse is "breaking the game" but at least in my eyes, it is now the Sunrider's main weapon, replacing kinetics by a good margin, due to its superior damage output.


Also Drath, how it worked with the pulse on the BlackJack? If the reason are mainly upgrades, then hers, with lower bases and so lower growths) shouldn't be as brutal.

I'm up to QuadPulse currently on Blackjack. She starts at a base 50EN for Pulse so its a bit more difficult to get PentaPulse. Blackjack's Pulse has fewer shots (8 Vs Sunrider's 10) but has slightly higher base damage, and so is good to use it first on units with medium armor while leaving subsequent clean up duties to Sunrider. Depends on your definition of brutal, but I'm doing roughly 1k+ damage with her per turn on Space Whale. I don't recall chalking up such numbers previously unless I was massacring suicidal mooks with Assault.


Simply change the upgrades on power (not even need to change the cost) and they will become a good weapon and not a balance breaker.

Raw damage is just one part of the equation. Certainly reducing +10% per damage upgrade back to 7.5% as originally suggested would be a good start. But I think the cost reduction needs to be looked at as well. 7.5% cost reduction is huge and can result in OctaPulse. Dialing it back to 5% would make a max of QuadPulse or PentaPulse more likely, which is fairly acceptable. Pulse at 7.5% damage increment and 5% cost reduction increment will probably result in a total pulse:kinetic overall raw damage ratio of around 1.6. That's a good deal lower than the current ratio of 2.17+. While Pulse could still be ahead of kinetics, they suffer greater armor reduction and need more care in battle planning to lower enemy shields, so the slightly improved damage to reflect more precise play is an acceptable reward IMHO.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on October 08, 2015, 07:27:25 am
it seems the improvement to energy cost upgrades wasn't necessary. I think I'll roll those back.  :-\

welp, the goal was to make a energy focussed build viable. I still call it a success :)
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Marx-93 on October 08, 2015, 10:30:11 am
Uhm, I think that the upgrades on pulse damage are slightly more determinant. As you say, Cost is also a factor, but overall energy costs and firing of pulse itself need to be optimized well, and it's something that can be a little tricky: you need some experience or skill to make use of it. Giving a higher ratio due to needing more skill is a good reward. However, raw damage can be easily seen, and now with Elites and its accuracy improvements pulse already has his niche filled, so it being able to reach such a base power and basically being good against everything is kinda OP. For the rest not much to say: on one hand, having the BlackJack being finally viable for heavily investing is nice, on the other, lack of use not always means that weapon is bad per se, but more that it requires some finesse (missiles were a good example).

Something I thought; for assault increase of base value is slow, but for pulse not so much, so maybe in the future making increasing the damage as adding shots could be a good idea. It would basically make it better at its own niche (low armour evasive and distant enemies) while also making sure that it does not grow up too much. Food for thought for Liberation Day
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Histidine on October 08, 2015, 02:38:20 pm
I'd say the accuracy degradation change alone was sufficient and put energy weapons in a pretty good spot, giving them a distinct role that's useful and which kinetic/assault can't substitute for effectively.
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Drath on October 13, 2015, 11:24:44 pm
Had some issues with Steam not updating properly. Somehow on my desktop, it autoupdated back to v7.1a once online on Steam and I can't seem to find 7.2 on the list of updates. Tried fiddling around but couldn't go back to v7.2. :(
Anyhow, I copied my saves over to my laptop, together with previous changes to FF/AG and played and finished v7.2 offline over there.

My thoughts are about the same as before: Pulse is horridly powerful in the endgame. Got up to SeptaPulse on Sunrider and PentaPulse on Blackjack. Played very aggressively as opposed to previous playthrough, aiming to kill most enemy units in turn 1 with SRW, VC and and soak damage with a beefed up Sunrider.
I had fun, despite my gripes, and IMHO if laser/pulse accuracy upgrades were fixed and damage and energy cost upgrades dialed back a tad, this would definitely be an ideal release.


Thoughts on units in v7.2 playthrough

Felt weaker:
Seraphim: Part of the reason why she felt weaker is due to higher damage penalties and FF at 10% damage on this playthrough. When you can't 1 shot enemy units (apart from mooks), that takes away quite a lot from the role. The other reason is of course being totally outclassed by Blackjack and Sunrider in damage in 7.2. Double kinetics is simply too expensive an investment, when compared with pulse upgrades. Still plays a vital role to help take down high priority targets such as PACT Supports and Pirate Ironhogs, but overall damage output is lackluster. Wasn't targeted the entire game and I never bothered to up her hps.


Felt about equal in strength:
Bianca: Made her a Gravity Gun bot in this playthrough to assist Phoenix/trigger counterattacks and also to facilitate maximum VC carnage (4620dmg). Previously, would serve defensive duties via Aim Down and sometimes use kinetics. With heavier damage penalties in Space Whale, her damage is a little too low for my liking, and so I opted for going with 120EN, full Gravity Gun action. Not weaker than before, just used differently.

Liberty: 120EN as before, with good flexibility of either 3 FlakOffs/2 ShutOffs/1 Disable. No real change, but she pretty much has her hands full, trying to get shields and flak down for the fleet.

Phoenix: Did not really feel stronger despite cheaper EN gain in upgrades. I attribute that to placement (7.2 forces you to start 6 hexes from edge instead of 7 hexes in 7.1). One hex is effectively 10EN which counterbalances faster EN gain.

Paladin: About the same potency as before. Starting 1 hex further away dampens kinetic accuracy but it is made up by having Bianca drag her around with improved Gravity Gun (40EN).

Alliance Cruisers: With Sunrider going full Pulse, the kinetics from these ships are more important than ever before, to reduce armor for pulse carnage.
Mining Union Frigates: With Sunrider going full Pulse, ShieldJam is an absolutely vital part of tactics.


Felt stronger:
Blackjack: Strong at the beginning with cheap laser/pulse upgrades and maintains that power throughout the game. Never bothered upgrading missiles much. They were useful at the start and so were straight lasers, but towards the end, the only option you'd pick would be Pulse. With the new boosts to pulse and few units with shields in the last Arcadius battle, Awakened Blackjack absolutely eats Assault Carriers for supper.   

Sunrider: Pulse was actually a good deal cheaper to use in the endgame (19EN) as compared to missiles (30EN). Never really bothered upgrading missiles much as a result. There was a good gap in damage and EN cost (between pulse and missiles) in previous versions, making missiles meaningful, but in 7.2 that gap was more or less erased. The other options, Assault, Kinetics were left even further behind. If you were worried that Sunrider wouldn't be able to bring down Legion with pulse, well the answer to that is simply straight lasers. The ratio was about 7 pulses or 4 lasers or 2 kinetics, in the Legion battle, and at a 2:1 ratio, laser still beats kinetics hands down. So yea, you can basically forget kinetics once you get Mining Union Frigates.



Something I thought; for assault increase of base value is slow, but for pulse not so much, so maybe in the future making increasing the damage as adding shots could be a good idea. It would basically make it better at its own niche (low armour evasive and distant enemies) while also making sure that it does not grow up too much. Food for thought for Liberation Day

I actually quite like this idea. But you would need a good number of proper enemies to make it worth the investment (these would be low armor but high hp enemies which like to close in).


EDIT: Included an attachment showing effect of proposed changes (damage, energy cost) to pulse/kinetic ratio, with respect to current 7.2 and old 7.1 ratios. Personally I would like to see both, but if people think that both are too extreme, you can compensate by tweaking damage or energy cost to be a little cheaper.

EDIT2: Played with 10% dmg FF all throughout and while it did feel a bit limiting at times, in general it was still tolerable. But I doubt if people will like the next version if they get too many nerfs, so maybe 10% dmg on Space Whale, 15% on Hard and 20% as usual for the rest? :P
Title: Re: patch 7.2 released
Post by: Vaendryl on October 14, 2015, 01:48:30 am
Thanks for the analysis, Drath :)
I'll keep it in mind for LibDay!